Ahimsa - Nonviolence - Vegetarianism - Veganism

[Nichole]

Originally Posted by Trinity

Jivamukti Yoga (Sharon Gannon & David Life)
- From the back cover, "The long-awaited, complete guide to the popular, vigorous method of yoga that is deeply rooted in ancient wisdom and scriptures". This is a wonderful, well rounded text. Die-hard carnivores beware - Jivanmukti Yoga (soul liberation) adheres to the principle of ahimsa (non-violence) and promotes a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle.

Originally Posted by InnerAthlete

This is a bit understated as they are so "adherent" they themselves are violent and therefore violate ahimsa in the pursuit of guarding its doors. How ironic.

After reading this in an earlier post of book recommendations, I really wanted to see how others felt about this topic. I have to admit that I see this as another example of a group of people taking a word (ahimsa in this case, though the word "patriotic" is another of my examples) to be their own. Where they define other's actions or thoughts or beliefs as violent if they go against what their group considers non-violent.

This assumed connection of ahimsa and vegetarianism was an issue at a Yoga and Ayurveda school that I attended. It came down to a my-God-is-better-than-your-God type of argument: meaning, no one person's way can be right for everyone else. And everyone was frustrated with the other side.

My wise and long-practiced Yoga and Ayurveda teachers have said things like these to my classmates and me:

- "If you want a spiritual sadhana, don't eat meat. If you want a physical sadhana (mastering asana) then eat meat."

- "I damaged my own body with my years of vegetarianism." She now eats fish.

- "Ayurveda prescribes chicken broth for certain vata illnesses."

- "Eating the flesh of an animal's body creates an enormous karmic debt that many people cannot resolve in this lifetime."

There are plenty more for both sides too.

I would love to hear to hear what others are thinking and feeling about this subject. I actually consider this quite a bit in my daily life.

[Alix]

I'm really a very down to earth kind of person and I look to our physical characteristics to supply some of my answers. In this case, the teeth. We have tearing teeth like predators to consume flesh, and we have grinding teeth to consume grains etc. IMO it would be against nature to deny the gifts we've been given. I choose to eat an omnivorious diet and will continue to do so. I'm not sure where I stand on the issue of "karmic debt". I think that could get us into a whole other realm of responsibility for the world as it is.

I believe each person must choose what is right for themselves and to force YOUR way of living upon another is the ultimate wrong.

[Hubert]

Originally Posted by Nichole

- "If you want a spiritual sadhana, don't eat meat.

I agree. This is because brahmacharya - control of the senses - is easier without those "animal vibrations" or call them hormones if you like a "scientific" approach. This is not superstition ... eating meat makes you prone to all sort of desires and pleasures, one with basic awarness must agree this.

If you want a physical sadhana (mastering asana) than eat meat."

Regardless of asana, a well composed and varied vegetarian diet is healthier. But the difference between a vegan and a person who moderatly consumes meat is minimal. Different varieties of meat can be parts of balancing diets, I even read of horse meat recipes for those with lung problems -myth or true ? I don't know - also cod is an animal, right ? (cod liver oil)

- "I damaged my own body with my years of vegetarianism." She now eats fish.

Lack of understanding of basic nutritional facts and a self imposed restriction of imortant proteins might be the real cause here, and not vegetarianism.

- "Ayurveda prescribes chicken broth for certain vata illnesses."

I don't know, maybe works maybe not. I like holistic approaches better - and ayurveda is one -, and some sort of meat consumption is part of every culture. Medicine is for everyone, and most people do eat meat. But if you can do without, it is probably better.

- "Eating the flesh of an animal's body creates an enormous karmic debt that many cannot resolve in this lifetime."

Eating anything might create karmic debt. I can imagine a vegan who likes to eat, accumulates more karmic debt by his complacency in pleasure than an inuit hunter who's diet is mainly meat based, but who knows how to be moderate.

There are plenty more for both sides too.

I would love to hear to hear what others are thinking and feeling about this subject. I actually consider this quite a bit in my daily life.

Ahimsa = non harm = but usually it is said that in sanskrit this has a positive charge, meaning act for the sake of others, not against it.

The book's adverising - die hard carnivores beware - is well thought. This book is for those who are vegetarian. It is customary in marketing to spot the target market share, and sell them by identifing with their values. No time and effort is spent in trying to transform people, this is not profitable in the short term.
I don't count this as bad. This is the world today.
An aware reader will probably see through this and apply the things read in the book through his/her own reasoning/practice.

If someone is really an adept of non-violence (or love for the others), than he/she knows that making a possible disciple face any truth the disciple is not ready to comprehend and thus, accept, injures the disciple, creating in the disciple's mind a resentment what is hard to overcome, and thus, minimizes the disciple's chances to advance.

Preaching and showing off how good, elevated and wise we are, it is violation of ahimsa, because it makes less aware people to back off and to misjudge the ideals we speak for. ( this is an error I often commit here, on these boards - but let us not go in there, it would take us far from here )

To eat meat or not to eat ?

When not eating might harm others, than do the lesser bad, and eat.
When eating it might only harm you, don't do it.
Ahimsa is greater than satya.
Tolerance, caring and compassion is better than being right.
Sometimes we can express compassion by having a meal with someone. Why offend him/her ? You as a yogi are already having a good lifesytle. A little meat won't kill you.
So, in affairs with others, be full of compassion, and tolerance. In affairs with your own weaknesses, you can be disciplined, and unforgiving ... to a point.

I was a vegetarian for six years during the college years. It was good not because of my bodily health, but because I learnt how to think and act as my consciousness dictates, regardless of others.

Now that I am older, I don't call myself a vegetarian because I am not one, in the sense that sometimes I eat meat. But I'm one in my mind and soul. I only eat meat when I share a meal. I never buy meat. I do not express any joy eating it. This way, even though I dont say I am vegetarian, and I don't expect my family and friends to treat me like one, without words I managed achive more than with a militant attitude. This way, my family changed a lot, slowly, in years, so we have fish or chicken instead of the customary pork for holidays, they buy less meat, they eat more fruits and vegetables alltogheter, and they realise it is better, without even talking about it.

[Nichole]

Hubert,
Wow! Thank you for sharing such a thoughtful response. I hope others will share too.

Om Shanti

[InnerAthlete]

As I've already been included in the thread do I need to add?

Dogma is dogma. Defining the phrase makes no difference when it is used for dogmatic purpose. It matters not if ahimsa means "chair" whent he position is so rooted in "not chair".

One clarification however for other readers beofre this thread grows. Brahmacharya is not control of the senses actually. It is wise use of sexual energy. Brahma (creative force, creation) and Acharya (sage or wise) as in yogacharya B.K.S. Iyengar.

One of the issues with the sutras, like several other texts of note, is that it can be interpreted in many different ways.

[Rashmi]

Dear friends Yoga is not asana and convenience, if you are doing Yoga, you have to adopt it in whole.Yoga is based on 8 yam and Niyams, Ahinsa/ Non violence is one among them.The sincere seeks of God and followers of veda and yoga do not eat non veg as it contradicts this.First life is given by god to every living creatire including human beings. When we can not give life we do not have a right to snatch it too.Every body wants to live , put yourself in the place of animal getting slaughtered, no body wants to die, so the same is true for animals too.Just they can not express to us in our manner.Due to there bad karmas they are given animal body.But when they must have finished there karmic result they will be upgraded to human body for there jouney upwards.The laws of nature are same for every soul. Soul assumes the shape in the body in which it takes birth.This is proven by ancient seers and mantra drishta rishis.So vegetarianism is better.As per vedas too god has provided man vegetables to eat.
If you not abide by this it is your wish.People may try to support this with intelligent arguments. But i would say they are still under the veil of maya, and god is not realised by such people, he wants his pupil to see god in every thing show compassion and mercy to all.Law of karma is applicable to every soul whether taken birth in animal body or human body, irrespective of caste , creed and religion.This is an eternal law

[InnerAthlete]

Hmmmm. Well how to craft this in a yogic framework?

• Classically there are ten yama and niyama. However there are actually more than ten.

• It is presumptuous to assume we know the consciousnss of animals when we do not know the consciousness of our self.

• snatching life is an empty argument. The soul does not die, assuming you are following the concept of reincarnation. Leaving the physical body is no more a violation than entering it.

• there is very little debate that for many people vegetarianism is healthier. It is not true for all.

Now on to the meat and potatoes of this...

It is perfectly fine to be vegetarian (or not) as long as it is in alignment with YOUR dharma and the choice is a mindful, conscious one. I am not fully vegetarian but quite close. It serves the health of my physical body in which my soul temporarily dwells. It is not to serve the sutra as merely being vegetarian does not at all serve the sutra. The sutra is broader and to look at it and overlook intention is avidya itself.

So that we may discuss it fully, BUT not use it as dogma to defend positions (and thus make it religion, which yoga is not)...

It is book two, sutra 30:
Ahimsa satyasteya brahmacaryaparigraha yamah

Non-violence, truthfulness, non-stealing, continence, non-greed, make up Yama.

Ahimsa is "not causing pain". Swami Satchidananda himself says that other authors define it as non-killing but that "himsa" is pain and not "killing". Is not Arjuna faced with this very conundrum; to kill or not to kill, how and with what purpose and intention? And how is he counseled by Krishna?

The sutras are clear that ahimsa is to be carried out with no excuse and for all time. It is the sloppy, self-serving definition of ahimsa that I take issue with. When the sutras are waved as the Bible is waved we've got a real problem going on.

If one wants to be a vegetarian that is fine but what yogi has the right to do so and wave the flag of ahimsa at others who do not? Just as it is possible to eat meat and embody ahimsa so to is it possible to be a vegetarian and embody himsa. How dare someone speak for the Divine. You may not aspire unless you renounce asana and practice only meditation. This is archaic and defies the very forward progress for which yoga is intended to serve mankind.

Do not fret (but do consider your choices), ahimsa is available to all, not just to vegetarians. Intention, intention, intention. If this were not so then every time you slice an apple you would be violating ahimsa. It is the intention behind the action, not the action itself.

[Spirittap]

Everything is energy and some of that energy is conscious. Just as humans, animals are on their own journey and are conscious energy, they have a soul. Just because a lower form of energy (predator) acts a certain way does not mean their action is justified, their energy continues to stay low. When you consume the flesh of another conscious energy, you are consuming it's pain, torture, and death. You are putting a lower form of energy into your body thus lowering your own energy.

Part of our journey is becoming aware. Consuming or not consuming an animal's flesh is not the only way to decrease or increase your energy, but it is a powerful way. It's up to you to decide if you want to continue being a lower form of energy or a higher form of energy. This is karmic, what you think and do is what you attract back to you.

[AnahataAnanda]

Namaste,
Ive been "vegan" for a few years. The reason i put quotation marks outside of vegan is because for the last few months ive been eating fish, primarily because i went through a period of time where i lost alot of weight and really needed to increase my food intake in some way and at the time i felt it would be best to start eating fish. The day after tomorrow im going off to my teacher training and i am feeling like this will be an incredible lifestyle change. This past week ive become 100% certain that i no longer want to eat fish, for i no longer want to eat any animal products. I want to hear from you. I know alot of people on here are vegetarian, and if not, i still wanna hear from you. What are your reasons, what are your preferences, how long have you been veg and how does it make your yogic journey more powerful, if it in fact affects it at all. I would really appreciate the responses because this is a definite lifestyle change for me. Thank you for your time!
Love and light and peace to all!

[InnerAthlete]

It sounds as though you've already connected with what is appropriate for you.
Our feedback at this point would be anecdotal at best, as it should be

As Gary Kraftsow pointed out at a recent Yoga Journal panel, Ahimsa is available to everyone regardless of whether they are vegan or not. Being vegan is a noble and worthy pursuit, for those that want it.

What is more relevant is that one selects what is right for them without projecting their "right" onto others.

So I would support you in your choice to not eat animal products (for your health) just as I would support you for eating fish (for your health).

My journey of yoga is impacted by mindful eating. It has little to do with being vegan directly. But I would encourage students to examine the nature of eating meat (in their body) just as I would encourage them to examine the result of alcohol or coffee in that same vessel.

[Pandara]

So much has been said about vegetarianism on this Forum, however I would like to add my two cents here. I think we must never forget that becoming a vegetarian doesn't happen in one life time, it takes many incarnations to reach a point where one can truely call yourself vegetarian.

Interesting point from one of my yogis the other night in class while we were discussing diet and vegetarianism: She is a devout Roman Catholic and as such she said she believes in the transmutation of the wafer and wine every Sunday to become the Body and Blood of Christ. Therefore she said I belief that when I bless my food and pray over it, I transmutate my food to become Holy, Light filled and of the Divine Itself, therefore the dead animal flesh I eat once or twice a week become more than just meat to me, she concluded. I think she has a point. So few people bless their food these days, perhaps that's why we don't get what we need from it and why we are getting so ill from it.

About Ahimsa - how can we talk about ahimsa if we as humans are busy waging war against everything from terrorism right through to poverty. For me the violence we express through our words and thoughts are becoming a bigger problem everyday as it perpetuates and fuels the manifestations of violence in the form of murders, rape, hi-jackings etc. In South Africa we see it so clearly happening at the moment that I even write these words with great care and trepidation.

[Hubert]

A little meat won't kill anyone. But the animal still must be killed. Now, as animals have group souls killing an animal is not like killing a human. The animal group can grow another member.
Still, it is arguably cruel to do this, especially that it is possible to live without meat. Many people would not eat the meat if they had to kill the animal, first. But they do eat it, because they pass the unpleasant action of killing to someone else. So their moral freedom is on the expense of another human being, the butcher. I don't say butchers or workers in the meat industry are imoral ... but the industry per se, is such a thing. All industries what target profit, and profit alone, are imoral. I can accept a carnivore culture what is built on the respect and care for animals, where the animals are not just raw material, but beings, who are given the chance to live. I respect the herdsman who takes care for many animals, and only kills a few, when there is a need. Animals have their meaning, their own purpose in lthe world, and that is not just so we can eat them.
We are masters of this world, we should be good masters. If we can't realize this, than we are a plague, and the world will hit back, as it often does. (Think of the Creutzfeld Jacob disease - caused by prions, what appear when animals are given to eat the flesh of their own kind )

On transsubstantiation of meat ... or the bread and wine in the church, I can't say I am a good romano-catholic, as I can't believe that a real transformation takes place. I am not saying this is not possible, but I don't see the need. Why turn something, what is already the body of Christ, into the body of Christ ? I do not like this kind of practice as it takes the sacred into a sacred place, turns some food into sacred food, while the world outside the church, and other foods are not sacred. We should walk the world as a church, treat everyone as Christs, eat every food giving thanks, as sacred food.
I am not saying organized church is useless, but when the first disciples had their meals in common, they did share real food, and they regarded it as the body of Christ. The theology of transsubstantiation did appear later. They even did share their material posessions.
Organised religion, the church today became a ritual, a show. I am not saying it is useless, but often it is authoritative, demands respect on the clause of blind faith, and is not free from materialism and some cheap sentimentalism.
I very much respect the Church, and see it as the keeper of the gospels. But it is just a frame. Real faith, real christianity is in our own hearts.
I do not want to take away anything, not even the Eucharist. It is truly the body of Christ ... but why is that only a priest can perform it ? Why are people restricted to come and touch and taste the Christ through another human being ? The Christ is alive, and here, in us and in our fellow man.

I respect the faith of conservative christians, and I do believe in blessing the meal. Only that if there is a poison in the meal, if the one who does the blessing is like Saint Benedict, the poison will be neutralized. Still I have seen many examples where conservative believers had food intoxication even with the blessings. You can't force the hands of God just by saying a blessing or believing in it's power. Real faith is not blind faith. Real faith is knowledge, and working along the universal rules, and not through miracles. Real faith makes miracles understandable as we understand taht they are not miracles, but fit perfectly into the frame of the Universe. Some people live in ignorance, they say they are faithful, than they are suprised that accidents, illnesses, death comes upon them. Many things are avoidable by a little knowledge ... why burden our guardian angels with tasks what could be performed by ourselves ?

PS. I know that there is a faith what greatly surpasses mine, where all the things I said above prove to be silly. But I am not there yet.

[Pandara]

Dear Hubert,

First of all thanks for using the right word, I couldn't remember it when I wrote this reply this afternoon, i.e. transubstantiation.

Thanks for pointing out the aspects which you have, I agree with what you say, but I am also one who do not usually argue about these things as I feel it is usually pointless, and in the case of my yogi, I belief I will lead by example. She is new to yoga and even her spiritual path in this life and her challenges are many. I just thought it was interesting what she said, as I have never before heard this argument.

About the blessings, I like to bless my food, not because I belief it will make me feel better, or because the Christ is then ingrained it or what other reason, but I do it to show my gratitude for what I have to eat as I had many previous incarnations where I did not had enough and died of severe hunger and famine.

[Hubert]

Surley you act with grace in all your endeavours. I do respect other peopel's feelings, too, and I am not making these blunt statements to my conservative christian antourage. I believe in the the wisdom of their karma. I was just glad to have this place where I can speak openly.

[Pandara]

Hubert, and I am so glad and grateful for you pointing these aspects out which you did. This Forum would be a poor place without your insightful replies and I always enjoy your posts!

[xela]

I am in the process of converting my diet to a vegetarian diet. Just the thought of eating flesh really makes me feel ill. I've fought with this feeling for years and constantly ate meat because I was scared of what would happen to my body with the protein, but after a lot of studying and talking to vegans/vegetarians I finally feel like I am ready to take the next step.

I do feel that there are two different situations...eating meat the way we do here in America is pretty gross, IMO. Just to think of what they do in slaugherhouses makes me sick to my stomach. I wish that someone could somehow step in and fix the conditions and how people treat these animals. After all, they are giving ther lives to us to eat them. Even with fish...so many people won't eat chicken/beef/pork, but eating fish is ok? I don't understand because I think they are horrible to them too.

I know that people need to do what is right for their bodies...and I have always thought of myself as someone who needed to eat meat because of my blood type, etc., but I think with slow steps and help it will be possible. I cannot live with the guilt anymore. Take Ana Forrest for example though...she is allergic to most grains and vegetables so she has to eat meat to survive. She kills her own meat...with a bow and arrow. I must commend her for taking responsiblity for what she is doing so unlike what the rest of Americans do.

[Nichole]

Xela,
I have been watching with curiosity since I first saw you mention that you were considering vegetarianism, somewhere, not sure exactly since we are friends in a few places. Perhaps it is the many months of committed and deepen Ashtanga practice paired with happiness and the love you have in your life; I would bet on all of that
I am hoping that you will you add links and any information you find in your own search in this thread because so many people are waking up to this for themselves. Mukunda has spoken to me, in his mentoring of my practice, about resulting nadis that are purified with right practice. As we purify them, what comes to the surface of minds and physical bodies is the pain, confusion, anger, fear, etc that was down below. It can become potently acute, but it arrives at the surface for us to finish off with conscious practice and cleansing. It is the last step. I was working through something incredible this summer, and there is something similar between how your voice sounds to me here and to my own then. It is the watching for how to be different in the world now that we know that we can't go back to what we once did. lol, I just considered that maybe I won't sound similarly voiced to you, even though you are to me! I wish you all the best, as your way becomes clearer and clearer to you.

Namaste,

[InnerAthlete]

then I must be really purifying cause there's been nothing but mucky feelings for several weeks now.

[Nichole]

Originally Posted by InnerAthlete

then I must be really purifying cause there's been nothing but mucky feelings for several weeks now.

Burn, baby, burn!

[Hubert]

As I expereinced and imagine, regarding diet, there are the succesive phases of ignorant innocence, selfish care, knowledgable but