Memories from past life?

[Pawel]

Hi All,

I have a "little" question about memories from past life and traditional description of death and rebirth in Yoga traditions. I read recently some commentary to Bardo Thodol ("Tibetan Book of Dead") and came across some interesting statements. That is, during the death all levels of existence are dissolved up to soul level (so everything from body to intellectual functions). And that soul has a sort of imprint from given life only through karma and wisdom (also in meaning of meditation skills). And that since specific memories do not fall into those categories, there is no transfer of memories to next life (I guess since memories are stored by physical means in our brain).

I will read other commentaries to double-check but I wanted also to ask you if you know some specific yoga texts dealing with this subject.

Kindest,
Pawel

[Hubert]

As I have learnt, no memories about names, places, words, concepts is preserved. So, in a sense, death is death for the worldy man. Only soul qualities, tendecies, talents go on. This comes not from yoga texts, though, but western occultism. Boooo !

Whatever you preserve as data in your brain, academic knowledge, will be gone.

Death: leaving the physical substratum of our existence. Approximatley three days (as long as one is able to remain awake in normal life) later the vital body is also dissolved into universal vitality(prana), and only an extract remains, as a seed for the future vital body. During these three days one has the experince of his whole life presented to him in the form of a great picture/tableau.
Than the time of trials comes when our soul (astral.desire.mind body) is dissolved "dissolved" into the universal astrality. This is a longer process, when, the deceased lives his life backward, but form an outer prespective. It lasts as long as the time spent sleeping in the former life, roughly one third of the life last spent between birth and death. The outer perspective means that you do not feel what you felt in a certain situation, but rather, what others have felt about your actions. This can be seen as a purgatory, this is also the time when one learns to not be attached to sensorial pleasures anymore. Because the desires still exist, but the body to fulfill them is not there anymore, this stage is painful depending on how attached we are to pleasures during earthly life, and it lasts until the soul is ready to go higher, into devachan, what is the closest thing we can imagine about heaven. That also has levels, but these higher stages I am not that familiar. During the time spent in purgatory, the desire seeds for the next incarnation are created. What happnes: one sees what one erred, and the desire to make up for it is born. Remember, in the higher worlds we are not separated anymore form the totality of existence. In the time after death, much greater wisdom is available to us. So, we will feel, like in normal life when we realize a mistake. We want to correct it. You see, karma is not blind. It is voluntarily accepted in case of more developed souls. On the other hand praticularly hard karmas will be hidden form us, to avoid the desire to escapae them. This is in fact a blessing all souls recieve when they incarnate. Our blindness to our own karma has the benefit that we only face it when we need to face it, and when we are potentially ready for it.

[Pawel]

Thank you Hubert. I heard some of it before but, you provided lot of new details for me. Raising even more questions E.g. if mental/emotional bodies are dissolved, how one can feel/think/remember? (as one supposed to during this time between incarnations) One couldn’t even remember that it was his life then.

Could you also write what is the source of this knowledge? And was it passed on or created by experience, deduction or other means? I'm asking because I heard that some people can access those states of existence during deep meditation. It intrigued me and I want to learn what exactly was happening and how people interpret it.

[Hubert]

The idea is of ever increasing spiritualization of human bodily constituents. (This comes mainly from Rudolf Steiner's antrhoposophy, but that is just a name. Same wisdom you will find in all esoteric traditions, but perhaps in different clothes. I like antrhoposphy as opposed to theosophy, as it is christian at it's core - but not in the sense most understand by that - I would say it is fundamentally human, based on freedom of thought, and imagination)

The spiritualized astral body becomes Manas. The spiritualized vital body becomes Buddhi, the spiritualized physical body (yes !) becomes Atman, or spirit Man. All this parts form a "resurrection" body, what, as it is promised, is everlasting, and no longer subject to physical conditions (decay and death).

[rainbows4roses]

Originally Posted by Hubert

As I have learnt, no memories about names, places, words, concepts is preserved. So, in a sense, death is death for the worldy man. Only soul qualities, tendecies, talents go on. This comes not from yoga texts, though, but western occultism. Boooo !

Whatever you preserve as data in your brain, academic knowledge, will be gone.
...............only face it when we need to face it, and when we are potentially ready for it.

thanks for sharing but i disagree

i have witnessed 10 - 11 past lives during meditation or dreams and i have seen names of myself in those lifetimes

the visions i had were brighter , more clear , vivid and real than what we see when using our two eyes on this earth plane


Hari Om Tat Sat

[Pawel]

Thanks Hubert, I think I will look for some comparative study - seems there is a lot of material.

Rainbow4roses,

You wrote that you saw your past life during dream. Could you say what are your criteria to distinguish this from “dream material”? I mean, in case you would have a dream about your past-life as opposed to images/information appearing in dream state related to your past life. And could you share how you experience this recollection during meditation? Without specific details if its too private, but in general what is happening. That would be really valuable – I find very difficult to find 1st hand descriptions.

[rainbows4roses]

no problem

i dont know if you have had meditations where your consciousness has gone into a higher dimension ?

i have a number of times , everything is brighter , more vivid and real , there is just a higher clarity there of understanding and knowingness of everything

if you experience that you will never forget it .

there is simply no debate about the accuracy of it , you just know instantaneously .

i dont intentionally get into that space , it just happens.

having pure intention , making your mind state as light and clear as possible , be detached from material or emotional aspects of life , and i guess if it happens then great , its another tool to use in our life

[tessiesasha]

rainbows4 roses

This ability to delve into your past lives or going into a higher consciousness -did it make any impact in your daily life? Are you filled with peace and joy after each experience? Were you surprised when you enter such realms the first time? So there is such thing as reincarnation?

[rainbows4roses]

Originally Posted by tessiesasha

rainbows4 roses

This ability to delve into your past lives or going into a higher consciousness -did it make any impact in your daily life? Are you filled with peace and joy after each experience? Were you surprised when you enter such realms the first time? So there is such thing as reincarnation?

Firstly , i dont want to impose my beliefs or experiences on anyone , it would be rude if i did.

however , i would say it gave me a deeper understanding about the experiences i have had in this life , i dont feel angry about suffering i have had , because the past life visions have shown me what perfection it has been.

for example ,

in this life i have been hurt many times by women who flirted with me , and then went with other guys , seemingly to deliberately hurt me.

one past life i saw i was a viking with overly aggressive sexual appetite and greed , i took too many women anywhere any time and i didnt consider the affect of my actions on other men who were getting none , i didnt consider how hurtful it was to them that i took women they liked , and i didnt consider how hurtful it was to my wife.... in this life i also had a very unfaithful spouse which hurt me alot.
I sired hundreds of children as a viking and didnt care about their wellbeing , but in this life i have no children , and maybe never will , i also had a very violent and abusive childhood which taught me to have great compassion for childrens welfare.
As a viking i sired children to other mens wives , in this life i have been a step dad only , giving love and nurturing to children who were not my biological child.


so the karma there is pretty clear to me , can you see the karmic links and patterns ?

i have got hundreds of such examples of understanding from linking the past lives with present day experiences


i now make a more conscious effort to be aware of the affect of my actions on other people.

what are your thoughts and feelings ?

best wishes

m.

[Pawel]

Rainbow4roses,

Thank you for descriptions of your experiences. When you have this experience, do you see images (like in lucid dreaming) or is it more intuitive knowledge somehow given to you? What is happening with your senses during this experience? Also, did you try to locate your experience in some spiritual meditation system (like yogic or Buddhist tradition)? In order to learn what stage of meditation/type of experience it is?

Sorry to read that you had so many painful experiences in childhood and later. And it’s great that your response to that was growing compassion! I wonder what has to happen in previous life to condition such great quality in one’s soul!

[rainbows4roses]

Originally Posted by Pawel

Rainbow4roses,

Thank you for descriptions of your experiences. When you have this experience, do you see images (like in lucid dreaming) or is it more intuitive knowledge somehow given to you? What is happening with your senses during this experience? Also, did you try to locate your experience in some spiritual meditation system (like yogic or Buddhist tradition)? In order to learn what stage of meditation/type of experience it is?

Sorry to read that you had so many painful experiences in childhood and later. And it’s great that your response to that was growing compassion! I wonder what has to happen in previous life to condition such great quality in one’s soul!

thankyou for your kindness

what i see in that state is exactly like looking around you on the earth plane , except everything is brighter and more real , also you can _feel more intensely_ , the " senses " are more alive and clear with instantaneous clarity. hard to describe unless you experience it yourself
be patient with yourself and you can do that and more i am sure.

i also get intuitive knowing at other times , even when i am doing housework or when half waking up in the morning , these can be information that fills in gaps about other things , thoughts about what a friend is doing far away from me , or it could be messages from people coming through spirit

i once had a very clear message from buddha ......

He said " before i can change what exists .. i must understand what exists "

which is still profound to me.

i used to spend too much time trying to force changes before i even understood why things occured in the way they do.

so now i try to listen instead , go within the consciousness with heart presence and look for what is real , look for what exists and explore it

also try to witness things without reacting to them

reacting with emotion or aggression is a red flag to us that we misunderstand the situation to begin with.

best wishes

[tessiesasha]

rainbow4roses

I sense this acceptance/insight/sagacity/compassion comes with age and experience both in your present and past lives. I do not know whether karma really exists but I think the world would be a better place if more people subscribe to it. But it is also horrific to imagine that innocent victims of wars and natural disasters were perhaps perpetrators of violence in their previous lives.

Admire your gentleness and stoicism towards life but it is something which I am not quite ready or working towards (although I know deep within I should). Perhaps when the time is ripe it will come naturally.

Does all this info about the past lives comes in chronological order or do you piece them together like a jigsaw puzzle?

Just a thought: Do you think there is a possibility that we can look into our future lives so that it makes the present struggles worth sustaining?

[rainbows4roses]

Originally Posted by tessiesasha

rainbow4roses

I sense this acceptance/insight/sagacity/compassion comes with age and experience both in your present and past lives. I do not know whether karma really exists but I think the world would be a better place if more people subscribe to it. But it is also horrific to imagine that innocent victims of wars and natural disasters were perhaps perpetrators of violence in their previous lives.

Admire your gentleness and stoicism towards life but it is something which I am not quite ready or working towards (although I know deep within I should). Perhaps when the time is ripe it will come naturally.

Does all this info about the past lives comes in chronological order or do you piece them together like a jigsaw puzzle?

Just a thought: Do you think there is a possibility that we can look into our future lives so that it makes the present struggles worth sustaining?

i have learnt to never make assumptions about other peoples karma , the way karma manifests is not always a direct reflection on the person experiencing it , nor a direct mirror of their own actions in past lives , we cannot assume anything.


the visions are often segments , the bigger picture comes first for me , then other smaller details come to fill in the gaps.......

and then i get the big pillow-fight doof in the head when a realisation hits me about links between what i witnessed and current life patterns.

which is good.

completion of understanding is wonderful

thats when we can let go of the experience

incorporate it into our learning and let it go...........

namaste

[Pawel]

rainbow4roses, thanks for sharing, it’s really interesting!

But do you have any criteria to distinguish those experiences from fantasies and dreams about past life?

Several years ago I had some experience in this subject. I was reading back then about reincarnation because of my friend who was interested in this subject. Once, during bath, thoughts started to appear about our relationship from our past life (complex picture involving her mother as well). It kept building and I remember that at some point I started to feel aversion to it – I felt it’s just rationalization of difficult feelings with my friend and her mom and whole story was like TV soap-opera episode. I realized it made me feel somehow more secure in relationship and gave rational explanation of difficult situation. In general I’m bit skeptical about any appearing knowledge that “accidentally” fulfills some of my emotional need, justifies position, rationalizes experience etc.

I would expect that these two sources of information (“creativity” in fantasies and dreams and genuine access to past life memories) would differ somehow. That’s why I also asked if you looked at meditation traditions. Maybe some monks long time ago were working on this subject and developed some meditation techniques?

[Hubert]

Originally Posted by rainbows4roses

thanks for sharing but i disagree

i have witnessed 10 - 11 past lives during meditation or dreams and i have seen names of myself in those lifetimes

the visions i had were brighter , more clear , vivid and real than what we see when using our two eyes on this earth plane


Hari Om Tat Sat

Thanks for the correction, and the reminder.

[kareng]

Hello
I am Karen and new to forums.

I know this but I am curious about people who are reincarnations of Masters etc etc.
They appear to have memories of their previous prayer beads amd much much more..and some Buddhist practises. Where do these "memories " come from?

[tessiesasha]

Just catching on a noun used by Kareng: Master.

I am often perplexed by such titles as Masters and Gurus. What must one do in order to be conferred such titles? The place where I practice seems to address any teacher from India the title of Master but to me they too have feet of clay and are no different from any members except that maybe they are good in their asanas (though not necessary their teachings).

[kareng]

Hello
I was using the example of Masters because they tend to be the ones people have read about. Surely a master is simply someone who has mastered certain rechniques. For example:

In a book by Charles Luk on Ch'an meditation, a Master suggests that students of Buddhism should seek out the inner Guru who resides in the red heart. He comes in and out of the forehead once awoken, he grows stronger the longer he is with you etc etc.

The Master, in the book, does not tell you how to do it, why?

The reason why, I think, is because there are dangers in practicing this loosely.
The Masters will not share the technique unless you are ready. There are many things not shared with beginners, they have to be ready and need guidance.

If you stumble on this, by accident, then you would share this with a Master who will advise you. I am sure you are aware of this, yes?

i feel there is no better way of describing, naming someone with knowledge more advanced than me in meditative processes. Of course, this does not mean that they are not open to temptations or weaknesses that they are still working on. Anyone is capable of being a Master.

Thought I would mention that I don't belong to any spiritual organization. What I know I have discovered by using just one technique and reading...also reading between the lines

Have you experienced anything profound yet, during a meditation?


Kind Regards Kareng

[Hubert]

Originally Posted by Pawel

Several years ago I had some experience in this subject. I was reading back then about reincarnation because of my friend who was interested in this subject. Once, during bath, thoughts started to appear about our relationship from our past life (complex picture involving her mother as well). It kept building and I remember that at some point I started to feel aversion to it – I felt it’s just rationalization of difficult feelings with my friend and her mom and whole story was like TV soap-opera episode. I realized it made me feel somehow more secure in relationship and gave rational explanation of difficult situation. In general I’m bit skeptical about any appearing knowledge that “accidentally” fulfills some of my emotional need, justifies position, rationalizes experience etc.

It is normal to feel aversion towards former lives. One way of realizing them is actually what you did: to collect everything from your mind, and memories, what you did not like as persoanl expereince or situation. And while in the beginning this will feel artificial, the more exigent you are in self knowledge about your aversions, the more you will feel linked to this image until it form the image of a human being, something you never wanted to be ... and that is what you were.
I think you just stopped because noone said feeling aversion for it is normal.

[kareng]

Is it necessary to know your previous lives?

[Pawel]

Originally Posted by Hubert

It is normal to feel aversion towards former lives. One way of realizing them is actually what you did: to collect everything from your mind, and memories, what you did not like as persoanl expereince or situation. And while in the beginning this will feel artificial, the more exigent you are in self knowledge about your aversions, the more you will feel linked to this image until it form the image of a human being, something you never wanted to be ... and that is what you were.
I think you just stopped because noone said feeling aversion for it is normal.

Hi Hubert,

I wasn't too clear in my post - this aversion wasn't toward the content of this fantasy (as I understand what it was - a creativity of my imagination inspired by my current state). Opposite rather, this fantasy was very nice in fact - it was about being close, connected with my friends in a meaningful and romantic way. My aversion was toward my willingness to immerse in this fantasy and believe it is true. I felt that if I will not stop, I will end up as some crazy person believing any past life story only because it is warm and spiritual (in opposition to dry and limited rationalists questioning such stories, as people who are less developed spiritually). Because I would start to have a personal interest in enforcing it and protecting against questioning (since it would become part of my identity).

I’m bit afraid of being deluded by sweetness and emotional benefits of certain interpretations of experiences or views of the world. I recalled now those children stories when main character has to go through enchanted garden in order to reach the goal. And the goal is usually something little and humble comparing to seductions of the garden (which would trap you forever if you try). Sometimes I feel like that in spiritual life. That’s why I want to just relax and investigate things before accepting them as path to go. And if I find some warning lights (inability to self-doubt and accept possibility of error, lack of references showing similarities in other traditions, etc.) go back. For example, how to check whether this information about past life is coming from fantasizing sub-consciousness or from some deep part of yourself (or external source) storing past-life memories?

[Asuri]

Here is a quote from Alexander Berzin about his former teacher Tsenzhab Serkong Rinpoche, who he now knows as a young man:

Although he has a similar sense of humor to that of his predecessor and shares the same practical down-to-earth approach, the young Serkong Rinpoche has his own personality. What continue from one lifetime to the next are the talents, propensities, and karmic connections. In my relationship with him, I feel somewhat like a member of Captain Kirk’s original Star Trek crew who has now joined Captain Picard of Star Trek: The Next Generation. Everything has changed and yet there is definite continuity.

As I understand it, Buddhism focuses not so much on remembering past lives, but on the ability to purposely and consciously reincarnate.

The article here contains a fascinating description of Tsenzhab Serkong Rinpoche's death and reincarnation. It's a long article, and the relevant part is toward the bottom of the page.

Here is another interesting quote from a different article:

In my own case, the deepest relationship I have with a spiritual teacher spans two lifetimes of that teacher. I spent nine years as disciple, interpreter, English secretary, and foreign tour manager of Tsenzhab Serkong Rinpoche, the late Master Debate Partner and Assistant Tutor of His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Rinpoche passed away in 1983, was reborn exactly nine months later, and was identified and returned to Dharamsala at the age of four. Both he and I reconfirmed our deep bond the moment we met a few months later. When asked by an attendant if he knew who I was, the young tulku replied, "Don't be stupid. Of course I know who he is." Ever since, Rinpoche has treated me as a close member of his spiritual household - something that a four-year-old cannot fake. I, in turn, have had no doubts about our deep connection.

The full text of the article is here.

[kareng]

Something comforting about these quotes! Hav'nt had time to think why yet

Thanks

[trueevent]

sir i think may be you right.but i can not find it.plz help me
thanx,