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Old 01-15-2008, 11:44 PM   #1
Nichole
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When does the soul come to the body?

I would love to hear about your opinions, thoughts, beliefs, and experiences that helped create your beliefs about the body and soul connection.

What have you been taught about when the soul comes to the body?
If you weren't taught something, then how did you arrive at what you believe?
Does the soul and body connection begin at conception? at birth? later?
Is the soul "attached" to the body? Inside the body?


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Old 01-16-2008, 01:10 AM   #2
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Hmm that's a powerful question.
I really should study with Mirra more so I can fully express some of these things both in my life and in my teaching.

I believe, in our work, the Soul, the central channel of the body, the pillar of light, and the Sushumna Nadi are somewhat synonymous. I recall some teachings about this, though our meditation practices are more applied then philosophical. Do not hold me to this but I believe the soul enters the body just before quickening. Is that the 12 week mark? I can't be certain.

And, I am told, when the light draws up and out of the body, you have, in fact left the physical form and are legally "dead".

The pillar runs from the perineum up to the crown and is purportedly just in front of the spine. The work of Sri Aurobindo focuses on bringing divinity into matter. In that way the light manifests in the physical form and the pillar is cultivated (so that we may radiate light on the planet rather than in the ether).

As I understand it. I hope I've not done injustice to the masters with this rendition. Thanks for asking.
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Old 01-16-2008, 03:52 AM   #3
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Sinchronicity ?
It just so happens that I have been listening to this lecture about Waldorf education, and this guy talks about how they see the evolution of children.
They say, the physical body is born at birth, this seems obvious. But the vital body, etheral body as they call it, (pranamaya kosha) is not totally born, meaning separate from the mother's until 7 years of age. This second birth is said to be manifested physically by the change of teeth. The "astral" body what is closest of what usually called soul, the emotional "desire" body is also attached to that of the parents', until the age of 14, and this third "birth" manifests as puberty. The fourth birth would be when the Ego is free of any parental influence, the man or woman is a grown up, an individual with the sense of being someone. This is set to the age of 21.
This theory (as I am uncapable to verify it by spiritual sight as I lack that) seems credible to my intuition ... when I was in 4th year of college, and thought back to my life, anything before 21-22 was like a dream, like I was sleeping and somehow, non existent.

Now, as antroposophy teaches, this is not where evolution stops, altough modern science thinks it does. Modern science is too focused on cantitative and perceptual knowledge to acknowledge individual growth through intuition, emotion or morality.
But antroposophy says our goal is to further evolve our physical, vital and astral bodies to the level where all these are spiritualized.
So I think, because I don't know teachings regarding this, that the evolution of a human continues, with a qualitative change, or jump every seven years, even if these are not as obvious or important that the first three ones. These are slower and not always outwardly apparent changes. The reason would be that all living humans did succed throughout history and several incarnations to develop the physical, vital, astral bodies and the ego, and the evoution of a child just repeats this in a much shorter timeframe. What is yet to be done, this is what we work on between 21 and the end of our lives, and we build our future "selves" brick by brick, day by day, experience by experience.

So the answer to your question is function of what do we mean by soul, and what is that soul's journey, because there are several "births" even if one lifetime.
For example, I feel that during 2007 (7x 5 = 35 years old), I passed through a crysis and obstacles what changed me in a way that it can be called a new birth itself.

PS. These births are not to be seen as if before them the ego, astral or vital bodies are non-existent, but rather than unseparated of the coresponding worlds (lokas). Children seem to maintain a spiritual sight until the age of three (ocassionally to five), and if we watch carefully, we realize that often they know things they should not know by ordinary perception or senses. For example they seem to have a keen emotional intuition, immediatly knowing how their parents or even strangers feel.
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Old 01-16-2008, 06:49 AM   #4
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Hi Nicole,

This is an important question and I am glad you posed it, as I think it goes to the old question about the right to life and issues around abortion as well.

About the body/soul connection: I do belief that there is a connection, but that this connection is more or less determined by your spiritual evolution and awareness. The less spiritually aware a person is, the identification is more with the physical body and the needs of the body. The focus of such an individual is also "me" and "I" and his or her individual needs. The greater the spiritual awareness, I find that there is less identification with the physical body and instead of being me-orientated, such an individual is more concerned about the group or the bigger picture.

When does a soul come into the body: I live near a state hospital where I know they perform hundreds of abortions on a daily basis. Sometimes my awareness is drawn to this hospital to help souls who had to endure an abortion. Initially I was very upset and I questioned it a lot until a very kind and gentle Angel impressed it one day on my mind that many of those souls who experienced abortion, was due to a karmic situation. I felt at peace immediately. It was also impressed on me that many of the aborted bodies had no soul in them, the Divine plan knew which ones need a soul to experience the trauma of abortion and which ones not. So my own personal belief is that it depends on the age old ingredient of the recipe of the Universe which we call karma.

Is the soul attached to the body: It is attached in the sense that it needs the body to perform certain duties and to experience certain situations while in it. When my father died in 2006 I was fortunate enough to be beside him and to help him through my intuition to move out of his body and to go with the beautiful Angel of Death. The soul departed as soon as his breath stopped and it was very quick, he had a moment in which he paused, but then he moved on and I had contact with him only after about six months again. What was interesting for me was that the point of departure was where the fontanelle is situated, you know that soft spot ontop of a baby's head which closes later. This area was very hot with my father and on a energy level there was a huge Light there in his auric body, which was for the rest of his body nearly colourless. However what did remain was what we call the silver cord, that only completely faded after three days. I assume from there the Christain belief to bury the dead only after three days.

Would like to read other views as well as I think this can be a very interesting post.
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Old 01-16-2008, 08:38 AM   #5
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According to the Slovenian healer (book is not translated), soul comes into the material world in a moment of a conception. But it can be present already a couple of years before in a biofield (he use this term for a information - energy structures; we have biofield of the whole Universe, biofield of planets, biofield of group of people, biofield of a family, biofield of an individual - they are all connected) of parents. Child's health and balance is influenced by emotions, thoughts and behavior of parents not only in a pregnancy time but even years before.
Soul incarnates to parents that correspond to what we need for growth and evolution. Soul chooses the exactly determined time of a birth (planet's influence), place and biological parents. How much we are influenced by the given circumstances depends on developmental level of the soul. Each cell has elementary consciousness from a beginning. Information that child gets in a pregnancy time partly creates characteristic with which we live today. Tensions or stress are imprinted in a central nervous system and it influence the structures of our subconsciousness.
Incarnation can be material or non-material (energy body and not also physical body).
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Old 01-16-2008, 09:41 PM   #6
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As per the eternal Vedas, the soul enters immediately at the time of conception. When soul is there then only the ebryo or foetus starts growing.Every soul under the law of creator as per kerma, takes birth in particular house to particular parents. when a soul dies i.e it leaves the physical body, it wanders to different elements for twelve days and on the thirteen days it enters into mothers womb as destined.This one i have explained in my vedas thread in detail giving proof of mantras.A body grows only when soul is there , if no soul means no growth i.e death.Same is the case with plants, animals, humans etc.

Why abortions are bad? When you are aborting a foetus you are killing the chance of a soul who will take birth as human and progress his journey upward.You incur a sin of killing a soul, the result of which you will face.

One example swami nityanandas biography for you people on karmic debts:

One day a pregnant woman went to Swamiji with her tale of woe. Swamiji pinched both her nipples and they began to bleed profusely. The woman began to howl in pain. People gathered around and some among them began to complain bitterly and decided to beat up Swamiji in retaliation. It was then they heard Swamiji's words. "Three of her children are dead. This one will live". People heard his words of explanation. What he had said proved to be true. Three of her children, soon after child-birth, as soon as they sucked the mother's breast, had died. The child that was born soon after, a son, lived and thrived. When that boy grew to manhood, he became genuine devotee of Swamiji Nityananda. The treatment he had administered to the woman, was a rare miracle, indeed!

we pay our karmic debts. I have given you lot of links on siddha yogis biography you read them all these answers you will understand through them.

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Old 01-22-2008, 08:39 AM   #7
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Hi Nichole,

It is from fourth week of pregnancy on that the heart of the embryo starts beating.
Maybe it is then when the soul enters the body.
When heart stops individual dies, when heart starts the contrary occurs.

Simple.

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Old 01-24-2008, 05:26 PM   #8
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My husband reads Yoga Forum avidly. He pointed out this very deep thread to me.
I'd like to add a thought, if I may. It came to me that as we are all different in body, mind, spirit and other dimensions, perhaps our souls unite with our bodies at different stages for each individual, depending on our karma and our needs.
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Old 01-25-2008, 09:19 PM   #9
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Where soul lives

Dear friends ,
namaste,

Soul is indestructible by fire, air water. After liberation that soul is call liberated.When the soul has realised god and its eternal swarup and has left this physical body it can reside any wherei.e sun , moon, it doesnot require physical body.This question put forth to my Guru ji by one of the questioner is very relevant for all of us.The answer by my Guruji and question i am pasting here for your informatio and intospection;

Devotee:In which part of our body soul live?
Swami Ramswarup: While awake, soul resides in the left eye, while dreaming in throat and during sound sleep, soul resides in heart. These are the three places where the soul resides.


A yogi after realisation of God and knowledge of vedas has is called brahmaleen.If you have got such Guru never leave him, he alone can lead you to the kingdom of God
OM
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Old 01-26-2008, 09:23 AM   #10
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at the time of conception .

when a soul dies i.e it leaves the physical body, it wanders to different elements for twelve days and on the thirteen days it enters into mothers womb as destined.
the child in the womb can hear because it is a fully grown human being and remembers its past life,
when it comes out of the womb, it forgets its previous life, and is like an empty mind which does not know anything about its past life .
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Old 01-26-2008, 11:30 PM   #11
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The soul comes the moment the body realizes it's presence. Plants & animals are not conscious enough to realize the presence of a soul. To realize a soul a body requires a higher level of consciousness & human beings can reach that level & this is what makes them unique. A human being who can't realize a soul in his/her body is just an animal with a higher level of intelligence.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:25 PM   #12
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Souls

Good question. Where does our soul come from?

I am not a religious person but am very open minded. I beleive our soul is passed on from our mother. If you think about it, it sounds logical...well to me it does.
I think my soul or energy, whatever you want to call it, stretches to every inch of my body. I do not differentiate between energy and the soul as it appears to be the same thing to me.
Anything that is part of my body also has my soul or energy in it. Would you agree? If I have a mole, a growth or cancer that is part of me then it also carries my energy. It probably used my energy to grow anyway. Then why should it be any different for a baby who attaches itself to the womb and grows. If energy flows through our bodies, then of course it is going to be part of the baby. So I think we have a soul at conception which grows and develops from there just like the baby and its mind do.

All these theories about the soul coming from god or entering the body after birth seem a bit far fetched for me. Have you ever seen god or noticed the time when your baby seems to suddenly have a soul? There is a lack of evidence to back those claims up but there is more evidence towards psychic connections with our mothers who share our energy. Thats not to say some dont have a psychic connection with their fathers. But for those who do that development comes after birth I think.
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Old 02-29-2008, 01:28 AM   #13
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Kimba, your view about the "energy" of the mother and the child might actually be true.

I salute your honesty. It would be foolish to believe things you cannot comprehend or imagine, there is the danger of getting lost in phantasizing and illusions created by our own mind.

With love and respect
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Old 02-29-2008, 05:46 PM   #14
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Hi Hubert.........It seems we all have different beliefs and thoughts on the soul. I guess perhaps we will never know the truth. Or perhaps we do already know the truth.

I think I should retract my words about the theory of god and the soul entering the body after birth. Some people do believe that is how the soul enters the body and I am respectful of their beliefs, I hope nobdy was offended by my comment.
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Old 03-01-2008, 04:56 AM   #15
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Christians say the soul is created by God at the moment of conception. Materialist science denies the existence of the soul.
This is a yoga forum. Yoga is based on yoga philosophy, and it's cosmogony says the soul is immortal, and incarnates endlessly.
But because yogi's should trust only personal experience instead of any dogma, all opinions are respected. Atheism, as an example, is a very honest approach. (I am not saying you are atheist as I don't know that, this is just an example)
This does not mean mental understanding of concepts or things we cannot yet experience is useless, on the contrary, given that reason and logic, are used togheter with an open mind.
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Old 03-01-2008, 10:39 PM   #16
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Hi Hubert........I'm not athiest, christian or scientist. Perhaps I am more spiritual...with some logic and reason...ha...I dont know. But I do have a mix of beliefs. Like you, I also beleive the soul is immortal and lives on (this is from personal experience when my first partner who died came to say goodbye in a dream. He answered questions only he could have answered and then told me he had to be somewhere else, so I am convinced there is something after here). Im enjoying reading the different views on the forum. It is very interesting. However, I would be very interested to know of other members who have experienced a similar experience to me when a loved one has died. Other people I know who have lost someone close all say the departed came back in a dream to say goodbye before moving on.
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Old 03-02-2008, 02:21 AM   #17
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And there you go ... some people will say dreams are just creation of our mind ... illusions. But you know this is not true, from your own experience.
I studied my meditation guide last night, you are right, it is not good to over-rationalize these things.
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Old 03-03-2008, 12:18 PM   #18
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This thread was very fascinating, not to mention potentially political. After pondering it for a while, taking from my readings, as well as my personal birthing story. I there for believe that (following the laws of reincarnation) asking the birth of a soul is like asking the start of a circle, it's constant. We go through many rebirth through our lives. Every time we breakdown we are reborn and anew.

As for the birth of the body, in a more logic based sense: I think it's when you first take breath. Prana fuels us, without breath there is no heart beat, without heart beat, there is no brain function, and so on. I gave birth to my son via water birth. It was fascinating to be able to see him floating in the water and when he was lifted out, seeing that first breath of air. It was in that moment I saw his soul enter his body. It WAS thee most amazing moment in my life.
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Old 03-03-2008, 08:07 PM   #19
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As for the birth of the body, in a more logic based sense: I think it's when you first take breath. Prana fuels us, without breath there is no heart beat, without heart beat, there is no brain function, and so on.
Hello Bridgette and welcome to the forum. Thank you for sharing your story of the birth of your son--it is lovely to hear about your experience.

I would like to respond to this part of your contribution to the thread because you are mistaken about certain aspects of fetal development: the heart of an embryo, and later the fetus, does beat without bringing breath into its lungs. In fact, the heart begins beating between wk 4 of 5 of early gestation, before the lungs even begin to form. And while there is not "breath", there is certainly fetal respiration and a gas exchange between mother and fetus. Breath and respiration are only 2 ways that we can build and sustain prana in our bodies. There is also measurable fetal brain function, as well as, basic ego function and ahamkar. There is prana, or lifeforce, within the body of the fetus and of the earlier embryo too--it is shared first and gained from the mother's own prana and it strengthens to be self-sustaining during the pregnancy.

Studies have shown brief-duration brain function without respiration or circulation, even for the few minutes immediately after death; this is because our bodies will give the glucose and O2 resources to the brain first. These few minutes of body-death and brain-dying is what many of us are trying to prepare for with our Yoga and meditation practices.

I wanted to thank everyone who has contributed to and shared in this thread so far--I find it all very interesting, especially the personal sharing. I am glad to see that so many of you are enjoying it too.

Kind wishes,
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Old 03-03-2008, 08:48 PM   #20
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I should have been a bit more specfic, sorry.
Quote:
Prana fuels us, without breath there is no heart beat, without heart beat, there is no brain function, and so on.
I was directing that comment to the post-birth body. I'm aware of the heart beat of the fetus but the heart beats because the body is receiving oxygen from the body of the mother. The lungs however are collapsed and unused. The child is developing but in order to become and individual, the entrance of the soul, (at least from my perspective) is in the first breath.
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Old 03-03-2008, 10:34 PM   #21
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I should have been a bit more specfic, sorry. I was directing that comment to the post-birth body. I'm aware of the heart beat of the fetus but the heart beats because the body is receiving oxygen from the body of the mother. The lungs however are collapsed and unused. The child is developing but in order to become and individual, the entrance of the soul, (at least from my perspective) is in the first breath.
Bridgette,
Thank you for being more specific. This helps all of us to be more clear on what you sharing in terms of your beliefs on when a body becomes animated by a soul. I am always curious about this belief (perspective, whatever) that the soul comes to the body after birth when it is held by a woman who has delivered a child and herself become a mother. Is it too personal of a question to ask how you came to this belief? If not, please share and if so, please respect that.

Just for clarity for all the readers, the embryonic and/or fetal heart beats due to a number of physiological factors, not solely the presence of O2. Also, there can be--and likely will be with the absence of severe brain injury--a short period of brain function and awareness even after the heart stops beating and the last breath is taken due the to O2 and glucose rations of the central nervous system.

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Old 03-05-2008, 02:38 AM   #22
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Is there a Body? a soul?
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Old 08-23-2009, 10:48 AM   #23
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Proof of Reincarnation

The whole plant has only one soul so when the leaves and fruits from it are plucked you are not killing (removing the soul from the body of the plant) the plant. There are some varities of Mango Trees which when 2 different types (like bangapalli and rumani) of mango trees, the branches are combined together.

This being the case it is said in the vedas that vegetables and fruits are to be served to God before eating it to avoid bad karma only for Hindus and Brahmins in particular.

In any case the plant itself is not killed when only the fruits and vegetables are plucked from it.

Some animals in some parts of the world can be eaten for example goat can be eaten ONLY after giving sacrifice to the Godess. This is prescribed only for the Hindus in the vedas. Others can eat insignificant animals.

When Gallelio said earth rotates around sun they gave him poison for telling the truth, but when later it was found to be true nobody cared to feel sorry for him. So where is the proof of the Earth revolving around sun. Could anybody prove and show to people? Can satellite do that?
Then how you people believe such a thing without proof, but asking for proof for this one Soul and REincarnation? I couldn't understand.

Likewise after the soul leaves the body, the body decays. The decaying body is the proof of the soul once inside it. Is there any better way to prove the existence of the soul?
still there are people to argue.

If this is the case then it is only logical to conclude that the same soul will re-enter another body which it does according to its previous karma(s). The body may be either of the bird, plant, animals or insects or bugs depending upon the kind of karma it has done.

The vedas says the soul enters the sperm at the time of conception. So the sperms itself has no life, but as soon as the soul enters the sperm which it is forced to enter by its Karmic principles, it pushes its way through to the ovum. Does this not look like science for you then what else will?

Nobody can prove and show to the world how the soul "Empowered" sperm enters the ovum while the couple is copulating.

While it is a well known fact that there are millions of sperms in one ejaculation but only one succeeds in entering (rarely in cases of twins more than one soul enters 2 different sperms) which is a brilliant proof that only one has life, which is what the vedas says that fits the explanation perfectly.

The soul thus enters the womb of a woman through the Sperm finding its way through the ovum and thus reaches the embryo stage before growing into a full grown baby. It is therefore absurd to say that the body gets consciousness. The body is consciouss because of the presence of the soul.
The soul in the body of a human has higher consciousness and that of dog and cat has lower cosciousness etc...

It is only too logical to conclude that the soul born to a brahmin family has higher consciousness.
I still doubt people will doubt and will fail to understand. That is also said in the vedas in KaliYuga people will be so dull and poor in intelligence.

Last edited by jaisimha; 08-23-2009 at 11:00 AM. Reason: some additions
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:49 AM   #24
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I would love to hear about your opinions, thoughts, beliefs, and experiences that helped create your beliefs about the body and soul connection.

What have you been taught about when the soul comes to the body?
If you weren't taught something, then how did you arrive at what you believe?
Does the soul and body connection begin at conception? at birth? later?
Is the soul "attached" to the body? Inside the body?


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Please, keep to the original questions of this thread. If you'd would personally like to discuss abortion, or any other topic, please begin a new thread in the proper sub forum.
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Old 08-25-2009, 11:56 AM   #25
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The vedas says the soul enters the sperm at the time of conception.
Hello Jaisimha,
Please, speak specifically and succinctly to which of the vedas you are drawing from.




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Old 08-25-2009, 10:14 PM   #26
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Soul Enters at the Time of Union

Nothing is NOT given in Bhagavadgita. This information is from Bhagavadgita.
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Old 08-26-2009, 12:40 AM   #27
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Nothing is NOT given in Bhagavadgita. This information is from Bhagavadgita.
The Bhagavad Gita, thank you. I had always been taught that the Mahabharata was a corollary of the Vedas; that it was post Vedic.
Please, if you would, share the author of the Gita translation you are citing and the exact verse. I am very curious about this, so I thank you in anticipation.
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Old 08-26-2009, 08:47 AM   #28
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Yogananda answerd this question in his book: Hidden Teachings of the Gospels.

When the soul enters physical incarnation at conception, the entire body grows from the seed cell. From its original seat in the medulla oblongata, the life energy flows downward, activating the seven astral cerebrospinal chakras, that create and give the physical spine, nervous system and the whole body. When the work of the life force is complete, it comes to rest in a coiled passage in the lowest coccygeal center.

Here the name kundalini or serpent force. In Sanskrit kundala=coiled

Because it completed its creative work, it is said to be "sleeping kundalini."

Man's physical, astral, and causal bodies are tied together and work as one by a knotting of life force and consciousness in the seven cerebrospinal centers.

The final tie is a coiled knot at the base of the spine, PREVENTING the ascension of consciousness into the heavily astral kingdom. UNLESS one knows how to open this knot of astral and physical power, the life and consciousness remain attracted to the mortal realm.

Last edited by Nichole; 08-27-2009 at 01:26 AM. Reason: removed link and added text to conversation
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Old 08-26-2009, 09:11 AM   #29
Bentinho Massaro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nichole View Post
Does the soul and body connection begin at conception? at birth? later?
Is the soul "attached" to the body? Inside the body?
Nice topic Nichole.

In my experience it is the body that is within the soul. Not an individual soul attaching to a body. All phenomena is contained and happens within consciousness, or as you might call it: soul.

All thoughts about an individual soul ultimately don't hold any substantial value either. These experiences and sensations of being an individual personal identity, or even an individual soul, simply vanish from the angle-less perception of Free Awareness. Being simply is being equally in all experiences.

So I feel that whether we belief in an individual soul or not, these beliefs and the actual experiences that go with it, vanish like dreams before the pure light of truth and unity that is all pervasive. There is no benefit in holding on to these points of view of any individual existing anywhere. The most beneficial and immediate freedom is realized to be already here when we acknowledge the fact that there is only One. Within that one many forms seem to appear, but they too are just that One.

So too is the body simply an appearance and disappearance within the pure unity of awareness. There is no identity of individual substance to be found anywhere. Only through our beliefs and thoughts/emotions and sensations is there duality and identity of any kind, whether bodily or soul-like. Both are like waves on the ocean, like rays of the sun, and like space within space. There is nothing to uphold nor has there ever been anything upheld. There is nothing to define for all is simply Free Awareness. Whether described and labelled or not, all is but a dream within awareness, existing of nothing but pure and spacious awareness.

To go into details of what we are as individuals and how we came about, is just like adding space to space, it doesn't lead us anywhere. If anything, it only keeps us from recognizing what we already are. Which is impersonal and universal Love/Awareness. Soul or no Soul, both are just concepts and experiences within the vastness of Awareness.

Just for a second, let go of all you belief to be, let all these beliefs about soul, karma, bodies, atman etc be. In that peace of letting it be for even just a moment, you will see that none of these concepts ever have any substance or power over the aware spaciousness that you are, you are always free from their definitions. That which is free and aware is what you truly are and it does not need any defining or explaining or appointing yourself an identity to any concept whatsoever. Be free from whatever you have been taught and you will find yourself, at least for that moment.

Let's not get lost and keep it simple. Let us be as we are, free and undefined. Again and again untill this Free Awareness is our primary state of being and perceiving.

Love,
Bentinho.
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Last edited by Bentinho Massaro; 08-26-2009 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 08-27-2009, 10:06 PM   #30
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Soul enters body

Nicole,

Here is the answer you asked.

Q: When does the soul enter the sperm of a male ('punsam retah-kana-asraya, SB 3.31.1)? According to medical science semen has millions of sperms and any of them can combine with an ovum. If they are moving can all of them have souls? Do the other sperms, which do not combine with with ovum, have to leave the sperm body?

A: In his BG As It Is 8.3, p., Srila Prabhupada quotes from Chandogya Upanisad: "In the process of sacrifice, the living entity makes specific sacrifices to attain specific heavenly planets and consequently reaches them. When the merit of sacrifice is exhausted, the living entity descends to Earth in the form of rain, then takes on the form of grains, and the grains are eaten by man and transformed into semen, which impregnates a woman, and thus the living entity once again attains the human form to perform sacrifice and so repeat the same cycle. In this way, the living entity perpetually comes and goes on the material path. The Krishna conscious person, however, avoids such sacrifices. He takes directly to Krishna consciousness and thereby prepares himself to return to Godhead."

Yes, all the living sperm cells are inhabited by jivas. Science says the sperms after the intercourse live only for few hours and then die. Some research into Ayurveda could maybe reveal more information.
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