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| 04-23-2007, 11:19 AM | #1 |
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vimshatí
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 20
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does anybody have any experience with both zen meditation and yoga meditation? I am curious as to the differences. Im pretty sure Buddhism was influenced by Yoga, right? Didn't the Gautama Buddha study from Yogis during his soul-searching period? I know zen is a chinese innovation, but im guessing that there are some similarities. I could look for this information online, but how can i really compare descriptions of activites that need to be experienced. Im hoping somebody out there has tried both. I hope this is not too esoteric.
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| 04-23-2007, 05:05 PM | #2 |
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sahásra Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Romania
Posts: 1,173
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I don't have an experience with zen, but the little I know, It is to my liking.
For example, one master said, no matter how many years you do zazen, you'll never become anything special. A good blow to the ego, right from the very beginning.  My very limited knowledge in this field makes me believe that zen meditation's goal is the dissolution/suspension of mind in order to achieve a higher consciousness. Wrestling with a koan makes the mind focus on a problem with no solution, until the disciple realizes that the tool (the mind) he/she uses is is not proper, and throws it away. |
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| 04-23-2007, 08:28 PM | #3 |
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vimshatí
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 20
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I had never heard of koans until now. In terms of meditation, i was thinking of just sitting in zazen, with proper posture, and counting the breath while avoiding thinking. That is just what i have learned so far. I know there is other forms, but i have not been introduced to them yet.
How do people meditate in yoga? |
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| 04-26-2007, 01:48 PM | #4 | |
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vimshatí
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Germany (Nürnberg/Fürth)
Posts: 28
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Quote:
in yoga there are a lot of different techniques, also different from tradition to tradition. As I've mainly done meditations in the tradition of Satyananda, I know more about this ones than from other traditions. They are from the tantric tradition (Swami Satyananda Saraswati: "Meditations from the Tantras") and are all following a specific technique, but nowhere you try to avoid thinking (directly). For example in Antar Mouna you direct your awareness in the first step to the physical sourroundings (noise, ...), in the second to your spontaneous thoughts, ... . Then there is Prana Vidya which can also be used as a healing method (if you are very, very advanced) where you use the ujjayi breath, the pathes of Ida and Pingala, ... . In the tantric Kriya Yoga you do 20 different techniques after each other, some just look like "normal" asanas from outside, but its also about directing prana and also using a lot of ujjayi ... All these meditations you should learn from a teacher. More "simple", but also very effectiv things are breathawareness and bodyawareness - these are always "good" to start with. Observe your breath for a while, how you are breathing spotaniously, without changing it. After a while you can go to the bodyawareness, were you just bring your awareness to the body, how you sit, how it feels, the stillness of the body .... . These were just a few meditations from this traditions, in other yoga traditions are probaply also a lot of others .... . Greetings, Karin |
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| 10-17-2007, 03:46 AM | #5 |
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shatá Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Germany
Posts: 131
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Hello
I have practised both Zen Meditation and Yoga Meditation. It`s not that easy to say which is the better one, That surley depends on the person and on the teacher. Still i sticked to the Yoga Meditation cause all this Koans get boaring to me after a while. When one of the Zen Masters shows up with a Koan, go ask him if this is a question or an answer and find out what will happen than. But seriously I think for a lot of western people Yoga Meditation is a bit easyer in the beginning cause it gives more points to concentrate on. Shanti Lars __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______ Patanjali Yoga Schule Münster |
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| 06-28-2008, 06:37 AM | #6 |
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ashiití
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: India
Posts: 82
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At the starting of the process of concentrations(dharana) these techniques of Zen or Yoga appear to differ slightly..but moving on to the continuous state of meditation(dhyana) everything transcends...
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| 11-30-2008, 11:37 AM | #7 |
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pañcaashát
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 58
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what about yoga meditation versus Theravada style insight meditation?
I'm interested in that. |
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| 11-30-2008, 02:21 PM | #8 |
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sahásra Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: South Africa
Posts: 1,183
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Namaste Tyler,
Have been a long time, hope you are well. I would like to offer the following thoughts on meditation and again as always these are just my thoughts and therefore my Truth and not necessarily yours. I share in the belief that someone might find some truth in it. Forget about following this meditation style (be it Zen or Theravada or yoga etc) or that one, first master the basics and the worry about this style or that one. There are Four Basic Techniques to Practice Meditation:
These techniques are meditation practices rather than meditation itself. Meditation is something that happens to you after diligently and persistently sticking to your practice day after day. It might not happen to you in this life, but remember nothing you do spiritually is lost, it all adds up for the next life. Meditation is often described by experienced practitioners as "a state of being — a state of receptivity without expectation, a merging with the Divine." All of the techniques are practice to get to this final merged state. Therefore, meditation practice is not meditation. One might practice meditation for years to achieve a meditative state of being. An experienced meditator might meditate for an hour to achieve a few moments of meditative consciousness. Trust this might help a little. Once you have mastered the basics then start to investigate this style or that. After nearly 15 years of everyday meditation I still do only two of the above practices: breath and mantra. 
__________________
Blessings & Om's Pandara _____________________________________________ http://www.oneyogalife.wordpress.com Live everyday as if it is a miracle - Einstein |
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| 11-30-2008, 02:45 PM | #9 |
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pañcaashát
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 58
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hi Pandara,
yeah it really gives perspective, thanks Pandara. I'm doing really good, hope you are well. Tyler |
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| 12-01-2008, 06:17 PM | #10 |
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trimshát
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Hertfordshire England
Posts: 33
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Bodidharma went to the Shaolin temple in China and taught the monks, I can only presume then that zen was an Indian creation..??
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| 12-01-2008, 06:44 PM | #11 |
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pañcaashát
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 58
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The question, what are the basics? I say it takes more
than this be able to meditate. It actually takes a lot of preparation - you have to make changes to your lifestyle, to your way of looking at things all the rest of the time, or else you just end up stewing in mud. It's not so easy to just put yourself under your own will and just do it. I've been there. |
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| 12-30-2008, 12:48 PM | #12 |
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ashiití
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spain
Posts: 89
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Hello,
I did practice OM meditation for four years, the first two visualizing the Ajna Chakra. Finally i arrived to the conclusion that it was straining to my mind and tried Zazen. Actually, one year latter, i'm reaping the same fruit but with no mental strain. Sometimes i achieve an state of "almost no-thoughts", but naturally, effortlessly. However, the sensations experienced with OM meditation were much more pleasant than with zazen. They were pleasant, but also misleading, they negatively affected my concentration. Mantras have a wonderfull effect on one's prana and well being. Good luck! |
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| 01-03-2009, 11:48 PM | #13 |
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trimshát
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 32
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Well the lotus position is a yoga position... And zennists meditate in the lotus.
Zen is inspired by the ancient Brahmanist yogies. And Brahmanism is inspired by Buddha I presume. Boddhidarma was from middle Eastern Persia, yes, not India. He did study in India altough. Then he traveled to China to create Chan at mount Shaolin, then he traveled to Japan to create Zen and the Budos. Yes, the patriach of Zen is also credited for all the traditionnal martial arts we know today. It is believed Boddhidarma learned some martial arts in India, but history or legend says that martial arts came to him (like a vision or revelation) after a 9 year meditation period in a cave. |
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| 01-04-2009, 11:07 AM | #14 |
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dashan
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: France
Posts: 18
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As far as I understand zen meditation is a kind of yogic meditation by concentration in self-observation, I don't see any difference. Zen would come from the Chinese word Chan, and Chan from the Sanskrit word Dhyana which means meditation. Dhyana indicates the state of mind when there is a connection between a subject and an object, a yogic practice and also reflection. One can also read the Satipatthana sutta and practice to understand what makes the vipassana meditation so special. There is a big controversy in metaphysics, as Buddhists don't accept the notion of atma/purusha, so there is no eternal witness for them, but that is mainly some theory. At a subtle level, I also think that one can get also contact with the spiritual forces related to the teachings and masters which have impact on the practice and give orientation to the sadhana.
Philippe Last edited by Philippe*; 01-04-2009 at 11:30 AM. |
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| 01-04-2009, 11:18 AM | #15 | |
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dashan
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: France
Posts: 18
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Quote:
Philippe Last edited by Philippe*; 01-04-2009 at 11:27 AM. |
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| 01-04-2009, 08:11 PM | #16 |
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trimshát
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 32
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Hello Philippe, yes very little is knowned about Boddhidarma.
I've been doing zen meditation for 12 years, sometimes I meditate in Zen centers. For yoga I go to a yoga studio... Boddhidarma is more important than Buddha in my view. I mean, according to my interests. That is why I did research on him. I know his story pretty well. Boddhidarma is my inspiration in spirituality. (along with others of course). He was from Persia. Actually, Persia is modern Iran. So he was middle eastern. But maybe he was mixed with european, because he was known to have clear eyes, light green or gray. He was also known to be a little over weight. It is said he had cardiac problems when he arrived a mount Shaolin. At an age of 100 years old, he could fight against 10 Shaolin warriors at the same time and win. So the legend says. How ironic that a Persian, trained in India, founded Zen in Japan... Japans iconic religion, is not from a Japanese. |
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| 01-07-2009, 08:24 AM | #17 |
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ashiití
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Spain
Posts: 89
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Persians as high caste indians, belonged to the aryan racial group (indo-european). That explains the color of his eyes.
The fact he could fight against 10 shaolin warriors explains his cardiac problems... (kidding).
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| 01-19-2009, 12:41 AM | #18 |
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trimshát
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 32
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Yea he must have been scared to death of them. Ha ha.
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| 03-30-2009, 08:25 PM | #19 |
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vimshatí
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA
Posts: 29
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I know a lot about both. Yoga is a much broader term. It includes all of the religions including zen. Buddha practised yoga. There is hatha yoga, bhakti yoga, raja yoga and others. The ultimate goal of them is the same.
Zen may emphasize the term enlightenment whereas wikipedia says that in yoga the goal is a perfect state of consciousness. Which term do you like better. Do you like car or automobile better? Yes it comes down to individual teachers.
__________________
Socrates says "Know thyself!" |
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| 03-30-2009, 08:29 PM | #20 |
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vimshatí
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA
Posts: 29
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You could literally write a book on the different types of zen and of yoga. There are many different kinds. Look at all the sects of Christian Protestants. People could ask what is the best type of yoga.
__________________
Socrates says "Know thyself!" |
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| 04-12-2009, 04:14 PM | #21 |
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trimshát
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 32
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Yoga and zen are linked. But they are different in their goals. Hatha yoga is based on unifiying the mind and body. Zen is based on cultivating awareness. Jahna yoga would be closer to zen. In essence, zen and yoga have similar goals in cultivating mans link with his inner higher self.
Its just that zen and yoga are practiced in such different settings. Very different scenes and mentalities. But over all, innner silence is inner silence weither you are in a dojo or an ashram... |
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| 04-13-2009, 12:22 PM | #22 |
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saptatí
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 71
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I have done some Zen meditation and not so much yoga meditation but from what I have read in this post and what little I really know about yoga meditation I would have to say that I will listen to what Pandara said and thank you Pandara for that, I was wondering about Yoga meditation recently and about the differences from what I have been taught in other types of meditation.
As to Zen Meditation; not all Zen Meditation involved koans. Looking to Pandara's list and applying that to what little Zen Mediation I have done Following your breath is most important however resting on an object is not nor is a mantra (koan) although there have been some Taoist based and Tibetan based Qigong forms of meditation I have done that did have the need for observing an object but none had any sort of mantra (and that is of topic - sorry) As to guided meditation my little experience with Zen has none but again going a bit off topic there was a Tibetan form that did something similar What the focus of any Zen meditation I have done has been being present and or mindful. Thoughts were not to be suppressed or forced away but observed and allowed to pass, as I was once told think of them as boats on a river passing by. But I have also been told they are like monkeys screaming for attention that if ignored just get louder and if watched eventually they will go away. However there are different types of Zen meditation and different sub sects of Zen so I can only speak of my little experience with it and I am most certainly not and expert on the topic so take it for what it is worth Also Zen origin has been mentioned here so where does Zen Come from? Answer: India. Buddhism came out of India and went to China where it combined with some Taoism and Confucianism and became Chan Buddhism which went to Japan and became Zen Buddhism but there are sub sects of these that do not always look at things exactly the same. EDIT I Needed to add something Not all Zen Meditation today is actually Buddhist. It has in places become a thing all its own that can be done without Buddhism and it can be, and has been, applied to multiple other secular and non-secular practices Last edited by SCMT; 04-13-2009 at 12:48 PM. |
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| 04-13-2009, 08:39 PM | #23 |
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trimshát
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 32
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Yes there are many variations in zen meditation.
I just dont focus on anything particular, not my breath, not my toughts, not my body, not on mantras or mudras. But what gets my attention is the breath power in my body, or prana. So if I focus, I tend to focus on this peaceful feeling, and am aware this is my energy body. I just enjoy its presence. |
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| 05-06-2009, 12:03 PM | #24 |
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Web Developer
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 44
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Can everyone explain what to meditate on?
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| 05-09-2009, 05:01 PM | #25 |
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trimshát
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 32
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Some zen masters will put it this way;
When meditating one should not think, but one should not think anout not thinking also. In other words, meditation is an exercise in ''not doing''. One has to learn to let go of his natural urge to move mentaly anf physicaly. You dont have to focus on anything. When you do have thoughts, just let them happen, and dont give them much attetion. You will have different stimulus from your overall senses, just do the same thing, dont give any special attention to anything. Although, some masters prescribe to focus on the half lotus meditation posture. And some say to focus on the breathing. Its your job to try out these different techniques and see what suits you the best. I could say that you can focus on something, that should be a feeling of peace inside your body. Monks seek to be in samadhi, which is a state of great inner peace. Over all, when you meditate, you can succeed in slowing your thought process, in diminishing your brains activity. But rarely can one expect to completely stop the mind, even experienced practitionners. I would recommend you to read different books on zen meditation. Its always good to have many different point of views from different authors. |
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| 06-12-2009, 04:45 PM | #26 | |
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vimshatí
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Material world
Posts: 21
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AUM....
Quote:
Yog is meant to unite the Individual soul (jīvātmā) with Paramātmā (Cosmic Soul or The Supersoul)... Zen is aimed at annihilating the mind, zenists believe that as long as there is mind, there are desires and due to desires a soul is embodied following its karmic bondage...to an extent this is right...but it is not absolutely right. As ego, cannot be annihilated. Zenists first try to impose on themselves that they are zero, the world is zero...when they reach that stage of millions of births of practice, they realize that zero also is an entity... so Zenists then try to practice zazen, to erase the remaining consciousness that i'm nothing. but this is unnatural so they cannot quite achieve this. here is where they differ from Yog... Yog (not Patañjali, that is an atheistic form of Yog, the Original Yog Texts are to be found in Jābāl Darśan Yog Upaniṣad that are much older Texts than Patañjal Yog sūtras) propounds that desire is a form of energy, it cannot be annihilated (even the modern science confirms this, no new energy can be created or annihilated, they can only be converted)... So, the Yog doesn't annihilate the mind or desires, they change its direction from material world to spiritual world. This is the kindergarten level of Bhakti Yog. There are different types of yog, but if i am asked, i'd say all other yogas simply beat around the bush, Bhakti Yog directly addresses the Self. in short, zen is destructive in nature, Yog is constructive in nature. Zen believes in the kill, Yog believes in the cure. However, you may absorb some LIght from the Śrīmad Bhagavad Gītā (Try and find the authentic version, don't fall into interpretation and commentaries)...for a more comprehensive view of Yog. Your servant, Sadāśiv Rām Kṛpālu Dās
__________________
Unless you know who you are...all the practices are but a physical-drill. (Jagadguru Śrī Kṛpālujī Mahārāj). |
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| 06-12-2009, 07:46 PM | #27 | |||
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saptatí
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 71
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Quote:
Um I don't want to start a problem here but you are very wrong about zen Eliminating desire is correct but the rest is way off base, sorry. Zen comes from Chan which comes from Mahayana Buddhism which does have a link to Hinduim but you might want to read up on zen a bit, there is some here The above link is where the following quote comes from Quote:
The above link is where the following quote comes from Quote:
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"Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, but today is a gift. That is why it is called the present." - Oogway |
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| 06-13-2009, 01:14 PM | #28 |
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trimshát
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 32
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I disagree with Reunion...
Zen is not a misinterpretation of yoga... Its a system derived from Bramanism and Buddhism. But there is nothing quite like zen, its a unique approach to self awareness, different from other systems. And zen is not aimed at annihilating the mind... The goal in zen is to stop the inner dialogue, which block ones ability to see the true nature of spirit, the higher self. Zen embrases the mind, zen is a way to free the mind... |
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| 06-13-2009, 01:23 PM | #29 | |
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vimshatí
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Material world
Posts: 21
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AUM...
Quote:
i mean the origin of zen... oK, now the second point that zen is a way to free the mind, as you suggested... what is mind, it is nothing else than aggregate of our desires, images, and conditioning of past births...this is called as Saṁskār in Sanskṛt language. as you stated zen aims to block the inner dialogue...dialogue between whom? the conscious and the subconscious minds...so eventually it is practiced to block the mind only.... Regards, Rām Kṛpālu Dās
__________________
Unless you know who you are...all the practices are but a physical-drill. (Jagadguru Śrī Kṛpālujī Mahārāj). |
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| 06-13-2009, 02:30 PM | #30 |
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trimshát
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 32
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I've been doing zen meditation for 13 years... Sometimes in zen centers, but most of the time by my self.
What I can say to you Reunion is that it is a powerful tool for finding inner peace. Zen is also a powerful tool to cultivate awareness and concentration. Zen is a way to reach the energy body, just like yoga. Zen like yoga is the practice of unification of body, mind and spirit. I practiced hatha yoga for years also. From personnal experience, I would say that in each of these systems are very similar in there goals. |
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