Vedanta vs. Buddhism, (update on my practice)

[Tyler Zambori]

hi,

I first posted about my situation here:

http://tinyurl.com/32p3nf

There've been a few new developments. Now I think what Nichole was
referring to as 4th kosha is what they call prajna. Last November my
teacher told me he doesn't even want me to look at the photos any more,
and said I was addicted. I was angry about that for a while, because then
why did he do it? I was not looking at them merely for my own amusement.
So for awhile I wondered how I could be so wrong, but then I realized, you
know what, I wasn't wrong, because of the whole situation that led to bringing
in guru one and 3/4. I wrote to both of them at the time, and if I had been
totally off base, they would have said to me: "No you are wrong, guru one and
3/4 is not for you, and get away from us you internet freak." They would have
done that, according to any kind of common sense, because that is a serious
thing, not to be done lightly, or to be allowed merely due to someone's misguided
fantasy. And they did not.

Leaving aside the trickster issues, I then talked to some zen buddhists about it,
because those people are used to teachers who are not always totally nice. So
they really helped me, and the advice I got is not easy, is not easy to change,
but I hope it's the last duck I have to put in a row.

They said to me: "the real addiction is the way you condition your mind by your
reaction to what your teacher says. Ignore that, and just start observing your thoughts.
" In other words, that would create detachment. It's a gradual process even to be more
aware about it. I got pema chodron's "getting unstuck" and that was pretty good too.

So I explored it a little, and got some books about basic mediation. This was what I
needed. It takes more than just learning mental concentration, being able to "not get
hooked" by all the negative stuff is also vital, and it all works together. I got a book
on meditation by pema chodron's student/teacher, sakyong mipham. It is written
extremely simply yet clearly, something my teacher has a lot of trouble doing.

So I'm taking it easy with gradually absorbing this stuff, but I also started to think,
you know: my teacher wrote his commentary on the yoga sutras for his most
advanced students, not for beginners. So how does that do me any good? His
beginners book does not really teach how to meditate either. So I thought, maybe it
wasn't quite his fault, maybe it's vedanta. I checked out books on raja yoga or meditation
by sivananda, vivekananda, ramacharaka, and etc., and concluded that in comparison,
as authors they are all pedantic and unclear. great. I don;t doubt their enlightenment, but
that does not necessarily mean they can express themselves really clearly. So I did
order a yoga sutra commentary by satyananda saraswati, who I already know I like, and
will see how that goes., I dunno.

So then I started talking to the buddhists a little more, and ugh now I know why
the western modern art types like buddhism so much: it's like trying to discuss
modern art as if there is actually some value to it. When I took art history, having
to read those really serious-level art critiques used to drive me crazy, and when I
told my teacher, she admitted to me that even when she was in PhD school, she
could not get that stuff, or barely. That to me meant that it does not really have
anything meaningful to say.

I think buddhism does have something meaningful to say, and I can learn from it
at a practical level, but for philosophy or logic I find some serious flaws, even at a
commonsense level.

So now I'm thinking that any time one can come across any kind of clear teaching
that is understandable, it's a rare gift. Maybe it's like software manuals: I have a
hard time with that too, and find that few people can write them without leaving
out steps. argh!

So now I guess I'm going to have to gradually give myself an education in vedanta
so I am not just relying on what my teacher wrote, because clearly that is not
enough. One hopes to be able to just do what is really necessary because there
are so many other things that need learning, and need doing, but I lost a lot of
time because of what I didn't know. (and because I didn't have guru one and 3/4
until 2007).

I will continue with my practical-level buddhist books on meditation, and probably
get more by saraswati, and if I get to my teacher's more advanced techniques when
or if the time comes, and find I am struggling with them just as much due to lack of
information, I don't know what I can do....I guess I will just have to be educated and
be prepared to look around.

It's really good that these days it's so much easier to get information on different
methods and philosophies, that is for sure. I guess my teacher tried to put me onto
autogenic training because teachers might feel going to a completely different tradition
might be threatening or something, but geez.......for giving the beginners a good
grounding, it'sbetter. I just don't agree with where they believe they are going with it.
I guess I just have to look at it like: everybody loses time in life due to lack of direction
or information, and it's just good that this information is more available than it used to be.

[Nichole]

Originally Posted by Tyler Zambori

...Now I think what Nichole was
referring to as 4th kosha is what they call prajna...

Hello Tyler,
It was been a long time and I hope you are well. It looks like you have been very busy finding your way.
I want to clear up one point that you made: the 4th kosha is the Vijnanamaya kosha not prajna.

Kind wishes,

[Pandara]

Hi Tyler,

I read the link to the original question about your confusion with the different gurus etc. and now this post. My questions to you: Have you ever tried to listen to and follow the advice of the inner guru? Ultimately you must find Truth within, yes the outer guru can lead you to that inner guru, but how many gurus do you need to lead you to the inner guru?

[Tyler Zambori]

Originally Posted by Pandara

Hi Tyler,

I read the link to the original question about your confusion with the different gurus etc. and now this post. My questions to you: Have you ever tried to listen to and follow the advice of the inner guru? Ultimately you must find Truth within, yes the outer guru can lead you to that inner guru, but how many gurus do you need to lead you to the inner guru?

yes, well, I got over thinking about the temporary one. Inner guru is
a good idea. Takes a certain level of development to get there.
Guru one and 3/4 wasn't really my idea, but that one is probably the
real one now, in terms of my practice, not in terms of the one who
does the scolding. My contact with him last November was the only
one in a while year.

It's ok, my main issue I guess is feeling there's a body of teaching to rely on in case the more advanced stuff turns out to be so badly articulated as well. Probably the only thing I can do is cross that bridge when I get there.

Saraswati has some books on more advanced methods that I may investigate when or if the time comes. I may want to keep an open
mind about it.

[Hubert]

Bentinho would say: why bother with all those books and theories ... It is obvious you are too mindful. You are looking in the wrong places.
I hear a lot about your searching, books, teachers, philospohies, tehniques. But how is your life ? How is your health ? What about your emotions, impulses, instincts, relationships in your life ? Shortly, what moral choices do you make daily ? These are the really important things. You cannot escape your karma, your fate. I do not get any info on your fate from your post, but only about your mind. Your fate, karma, is what you are. Deal with that. What is your job ? Do it the best you can. How are your relations to your colleagues, parents, or to your partner, or children ? What is your relation to your nation, and institutes of the country you live in ? I am sure there are things to improve there, because the world as I know it, is not good, it is far from it. We made it this way in our former lives, we do it now in this life.
Of course it would be foolish just trying to make these aspects better. Of course we have to change ourselves first to make the world better.
But our inner search, evolution should never be put before our duty in life. Neglecting a duty, is neglecting the divine plan what put you in that place.
You must not put so great an effort into your sadhana to neglect seemingly average or common aspects of your everyday life. Sadhana and life must go hand in hand, never on the expense of the other.

[Hubert]

Sorry if it sounds too harsh. But I see in you my own mistakes, and I am bad at tolerating them. May you be blessed and find your peace.

[Tyler Zambori]

Originally Posted by Hubert

Bentinho would say: why bother with all those books and theories ... It is obvious you are too mindful. You are looking in the wrong places.
I hear a lot about your searching, books, teachers, philospohies, tehniques. But how is your life ? How is your health ? What about your emotions, impulses, instincts, relationships in your life ? Shortly, what moral choices do you make daily ? These are the really important things. You cannot escape your karma, your fate. I do not get any info on your fate from your post, but only about your mind. Your fate, karma, is what you are. Deal with that. What is your job ? Do it the best you can. How are your relations to your colleagues, parents, or to your partner, or children ? What is your relation to your nation, and institutes of the country you live in ? I am sure there are things to improve there, because the world as I know it, is not good, it is far from it. We made it this way in our former lives, we do it now in this life.
Of course it would be foolish just trying to make these aspects better. Of course we have to change ourselves first to make the world better.
But our inner search, evolution should never be put before our duty in life. Neglecting a duty, is neglecting the divine plan what put you in that place.
You must not put so great an effort into your sadhana to neglect seemingly average or common aspects of your everyday life. Sadhana and life must go hand in hand, never on the expense of the other.

Hi Hubert,

How do you know I neglect all these mundane things??? This is not a forum
for discussing that kind of stuff.

I like my job fine, I like my 3d hobby fine, health is always a work in progress, relationships are nice and calm, ok?

The books are something I'm going to take it easy with, because even learning how to be aware of and observe the thoughts is a big task.

[Tyler Zambori]

PS: actually the searching through books would not be considered mindfulness. I'm just feeling like it's an issue I want to have some
kind of possible answer for, for myself, so I don't worry about it.

I think the buddhist approach works well, if one applies it only to
dealing with the ego, and to getting beyond it.

[justwannabe]

is it the buhdists approach or is the the approach someone takes towards buhda's teachings? You can meet a million people who study buhda and one person is enlightened. you can do the same with christians, etc....... We are now judging past Guru's based on the results of current followers. Read what buhda said at interperat it for yourself. My favorite part of what I read from buhda is the part titled the seeker So many people, myself included, spend so much time studying and too little time meditating. we are using so much energy searching outside what we are to find on the inside.

just my thoughts
seeker

[Hubert]

Again, sorry. It is a good example of projecting my things on others. I have been a total pain in the arse lately, but I don't mind. I have been polite too many times. Being polite is often lying, and repressing, being grumpy is hurting or rejecting, but at least, it is a change.
My idea is that personal life and sadhana cannot be separated, and if one talks about sadhana, one talks about his/her most intimate problems.

But you are right ... usually this is not done on forums. This is done between a disciple and a Master, or between lovers, or between family members, or between psychanalist and client ... whereever there is trust. This trust has to be earned. I did nothing to earn your trust so, so I can't complain, but I also cannot say if you do right or wrong, and without really knowing you, noone can.
I also have my own isuuses so I am far from being in the position of giving advise.
So take what I wrote what it is, my opinion.

[Pandara]

Hi Tyler,

I have been contemplating your post for a while now and would like to offer the following as well. I think our external world is one of great contradictions and fragmentations today and no easy journey for any student or follower of the path in such a world. Then we as seekers have to contend with the many teachers/master/gurus who contradicts each other around every corner to the point where some of them would even be rivals for the top spot, proclaiming they are the way or their teachings is the ultimate etc. A human thing this is, so you see even the great ones are just human eventually.

The great irony and sad part of this is, that these very same teachers/masters/gurus with their different beliefs and teachings create division and separation in our world today, instead of unifying and harmonising all.

So, how do you know you have a great teacher/master/guru? For me, I believe that when you are supported and encouraged by your teacher/master/guru to "experience" your own truth and to find your own inner teachings and truths through direct experience. This for me is the hallmark of a humble and a great teacher.

I once read this little story somewhere: One day one of the followers of the Buddha came to him and asked him: If I walk in a road and a man comes up to me and proclaims that he is the Buddha, should I belief him and what should I do then? The Buddha replied, you should not belief him, because the Buddha is within, not without.

[Tyler Zambori]

Originally Posted by tubeseeker

is it the buhdists approach or is the the approach someone takes towards buhda's teachings? You can meet a million people who study buhda and one person is enlightened. you can do the same with christians, etc....... We are now judging past Guru's based on the results of current followers. Read what buhda said at interperat it for yourself. My favorite part of what I read from buhda is the part titled the seeker So many people, myself included, spend so much time studying and too little time meditating. we are using so much energy searching outside what we are to find on the inside.

just my thoughts
seeker

hey tubeseeker,

I do spend plenty of time meditating. It's ok, I am coming to a resolution
about it, and am getting the help I wanted through a process of book
buying over the last couple months.

I'm deciding that Buddhist philosophy doesn't make any sense to me, but
I am not above using something useful on the practical end of things.

Tyler

[Tyler Zambori]

Originally Posted by Pandara

Hi Tyler,

I have been contemplating your post for a while now and would like to offer the following as well. I think our external world is one of great contradictions and fragmentations today and no easy journey for any student or follower of the path in such a world. Then we as seekers have to contend with the many teachers/master/gurus who contradicts each other around every corner to the point where some of them would even be rivals for the top spot, proclaiming they are the way or their teachings is the ultimate etc. A human thing this is, so you see even the great ones are just human eventually.

The great irony and sad part of this is, that these very same teachers/masters/gurus with their different beliefs and teachings create division and separation in our world today, instead of unifying and harmonising all.

So, how do you know you have a great teacher/master/guru? For me, I believe that when you are supported and encouraged by your teacher/master/guru to "experience" your own truth and to find your own inner teachings and truths through direct experience. This for me is the hallmark of a humble and a great teacher.

I once read this little story somewhere: One day one of the followers of the Buddha came to him and asked him: If I walk in a road and a man comes up to me and proclaims that he is the Buddha, should I belief him and what should I do then? The Buddha replied, you should not belief him, because the Buddha is within, not without.

Thanks Pandara, you're right, it's not easy. Well in a way my teacher
did do this - he told me to go off and focus on God within my own soul.
But humble? I would not call him humble. or rather, his humbleness
varies.

I believe I found the key - and that is to give up the meditation he
taught because it was the essence of seeking something, and just
do "awareness watching awareness" instead, which I found in a
book of course.

I have decided that he really was sincere, but may not be that great for
total beginners, because something seriously got skipped there. I now
feel that the meditation he was teaching me is something to be done when
a person is a bit more advanced, and of course some basic training in how
to actually meditate can not be skipped.

So I am doing this, and I will slowly try to educate myself more about
Vedanta. I'm pretty happy with the new books I acquired - besides some
simple ones about Vedanta, I got two new Yoga Sutra commentaries that
should really do it. If those two commentaries don't do it for me, then I
just won't get it. But they are not being my first priority right now .

So I have to keep reminding myself that he really did seriously believe
that his yoga sutra commentary could help me. The reason it did not,
was that he wrote it for his advanced students, and in fact any yoga
sutra commentary may not be the best text for beginners because it
s not set up to be understood all at once, so it may not give one a
good grounding to build on. That is my take on it anyway.

So I have been pretty frustrated about that, but then, some people
end up wasting far more time than I have (a few years), so I will try
not to feel too bad about it. It's par for the course, to waste time
until you learn what works.

Tyler

PS I think some teachers might, after a while, start to have a somewhat
difficult time remembering what it was like to not be enlightened,
and then communication becomes a problem, and they don't remember
where the beginners really need to start.

[Hubert]

Originally Posted by Tyler Zambori

PS I think some teachers might, after a while, start to have a somewhat
difficult time remembering what it was like to not be enlightened,
and then communication becomes a problem, and they don't remember
where the beginners really need to start.

A realized soul knows exactly what the disciple needs, because he has ways of knowing the disciple cannot comprehend.
The soul, once ready will recognize such a Master, and there will be no doubt of who is who, and whom he should follow.

What you say it might be true for people who think they are realized, or who are very advanced on their journey, but still did not achive Self realization.

I think you are on a good track. Getting from Vedanta to Buddhism, is getting from the complex to the more simple. This does not mean either one is better, just that it might be better fitting your specific needs.

[Tyler Zambori]

Originally Posted by Hubert

A realized soul knows exactly what the disciple needs, because he has ways of knowing the disciple cannot comprehend.
The soul, once ready will recognize such a Master, and there will be no doubt of who is who, and whom he should follow.

What you say it might be true for people who think they are realized, or who are very advanced on their journey, but still did not achive Self realization.

I think you are on a good track. Getting from Vedanta to Buddhism, is getting from the complex to the more simple. This does not mean either one is better, just that it might be better fitting your specific needs.

hey Hubert,

Well you would think so, wouldn't you, that since enlightened people
have a great deal more clarity than the rest of us, that they would
be able to communicate it clearly, but more and more I am coming to
the conclusion that it is not necessarily so.

What I am deciding to go with for now, is something written by an
enlightened guy that has a rather cheesy title, but it's like: here are
the clear and specific instructions on _how_to_make_a_hamburger_!
This guy, Michael Langford, spent 27 years on his own quest, and not
getting anywhere, until one day in his room at some ashram in India, he
figured it out himself. Three years after that he became enlightened.
So then he wrote a book.

Reading his description of what he went through, and how his teachers
described _how_to_make_a_hamburger_! and how off-the-beam
it all was (my words not his), and how much confusion it caused for him,
I am now thinking they really really have a hard time with this. So he
wasted 27 years because of confusing instructions from really actually
enlightened teachers. It's not just me. he claimed the problem was his
own ego getting in the way, and that's probably a part of it for all of us,
but it was more than that. It was also lack of clarity about _how_to_
make_a_hamburger_!

So I feel bad for him that he lost those 27 years, and for myself that I lost
a few. But at least now he wrote really clear instructions about how to do it.

Anyway, some Buddhist told me I have to choose between one or the other,
but I don't think I do have to choose.

btw, that's just a metaphor, saying _how_to_make_a_hamburger_, so if
you don't like that substitute _how_to_build_a_computer_! instead, or
something similar, but making a hamburger is something that should be
simple, and isn't because of too much specialized technical style.

[Pandara]

Hi Tyler,

Good for you. The flipside of how_to_make_the_hamburger is of course flipping it once it has been made or how_to_make_the_computer is to switch it on once you have build it.

[Tyler Zambori]

Originally Posted by Pandara

Hi Tyler,

Good for you. The flipside of how_to_make_the_hamburger is of course flipping it once it has been made or how_to_make_the_computer is to switch it on once you have build it.

haha so true......and I am just about to build one, and am very nervous
about applying electricity, after frying my last computer. I think I have
to do it myself, because I'm the one that paid for the parts, so I should
be the one to fry or not fry.

[justwannabe]

Originally Posted by Tyler Zambori

hey tubeseeker,

I do spend plenty of time meditating. It's ok, I am coming to a resolution
about it, and am getting the help I wanted through a process of book
buying over the last couple months.

I'm deciding that Buddhist philosophy doesn't make any sense to me, but
I am not above using something useful on the practical end of things.

Tyler

and is there a difference between buhdists philosophy and budha's philosophy?

[Tyler Zambori]

Originally Posted by tubeseeker

and is there a difference between buhdists philosophy and budha's philosophy?

yes, often, since it's hardly a hard and rigid system.

[justwannabe]

what are you searching for?
seeker

[justwannabe]

Originally Posted by Tyler Zambori

yes, often, since it's hardly a hard and rigid system.

in my opinion this is the difference
Buhda sought the truth and found it within, following his own path
Some buhdists are trying to retrace buhdas path so to speak to find what buhda found. It seems some people seek God in buhda, it seems buhda sought God inside himself. when you look to follow someone elses path it may distract from looking within
just my thoughts
seeker

[Tyler Zambori]

Originally Posted by tubeseeker

in my opinion this is the difference
Buhda sought the truth and found it within, following his own path
Some buhdists are trying to retrace buhdas path so to speak to find what buhda found. It seems some people seek God in buhda, it seems buhda sought God inside himself. when you look to follow someone elses path it may distract from looking within
just my thoughts
seeker

Hmm. Ok thanks for your advice.

[PatR]

Vedanta vs. Buddhism

do you really know what Vedanta means ?