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justwannabe · 09-03-2008, 07:18 PM

say there is a man who has very worn out shoes that hurt his feet. The only place he ever walks which warrent him needing shoes is to the liquor store. Would you buy him shoes anyways?
more than thoughts
Neil

JenW · 09-03-2008, 09:21 PM

Sure, I'd buy him new shoes. They might give him the motivation to go somewhere else ... for sure he'd never choose to walk beyond the liquor with his crappy old shoes?

InnerAthlete · 09-03-2008, 09:56 PM

Well Neil, a most interesting post. What are you fishing for?

Would I buy him shoes? No, in the scenario you present, I likely would not buy him shoes. It wouldn't matter if he were walking to Mount Sinai. That is to say it has nothing to do with the liquor store being a destination.

I simply would not deprive a man of his experience. It is egotistical of me to believe he should do this or have that. What I do know is that he has choice and I have to respect the nature of his choice(s) relative to his contract in the physical body. Only he knows why he is here. I do not.

justwannabe · 09-04-2008, 09:17 AM

Basically I percieve it as a question/thought about compassion. How much sompassion do I really have. Would I judge his life choices as good or bad or would I just help in anyway I could? If I was in the same situation what would I want? If my desire is to live in love do I think and analyze his situation or do I just act? Maybe some se it as his karma, but when I have suffereed in my karma I am very greatful that I have been helped through the times I did not help myself.
more than thoughts
Neil

suryadaya · 09-04-2008, 12:53 PM

I would offer to buy him new shoes if he helped me put the new transmission in my car next week. He would get shoes, a new friend, perhaps a feeling of accomplishment; and I would have one extra person to help, which would be nice.

Story time:
When I was doing massage I used to help a gentleman who was an alcoholic, who only left the house for more beer and to go to work. He had few friends, no hobbies, no interests. His neck had an old injury and he needed help with it, but had little money to spare--probably because he spent it all on 24 packs of Busch Light from the gas station where I worked. I only ever charged him what he could afford to give me. Until I read this question I never even considered the notion that his choices or addiction should have made him unworthy of my time or services at low cost, and in fact if I had not been so low-income myself at the time I would have worked for free. Through this partnership I was able to gain experience, a friendship with someone who otherwise I may never have known, and I was able to offer what knowledge I had to help him better his life in many small ways beyond simply releasing muscles in his back.

Perhaps the man with old shoes has never been shown the right way to help himself, and all he needs is the college student working behind the counter at the liquor store to give him a break and point him in the right direction. Maybe I'm idealistic, but I sleep well at night knowing that I have treated the strangers I meet like the family they are.

louise molenkamp · 09-04-2008, 01:15 PM

Namaste all,
Just maybe it is necessary for him that he realy can not wear his shoes anymore, his feet hurt so much and it is impossible to go to the liquorstore and then he is ready to call out for God.
On the other hand maybe you are here to buy him shoes, do something nice for his feet as well and lett him experience love and kindness. Take a nice long walk and later on have a drink together.
It is very hard to say what is good thing to do. I know sometimes it is better and more compassionate not to help. It is very difficult for your ego who wants to be helpfull and nice.
Love and Light
Louise

justwannabe · 09-04-2008, 08:33 PM

louise, this is my thought on something you said
My ego wants to help and have him change his life so I can tell myself I changed his life
my heart will give freely and expect no change, giving to him without attachments, unconditional love. and maybe if I give freely he will not sense burden because I gave without attachments, this may allow him the freedom to change. So many people may want to help him change his life that he does not want help that comes with attachment
If you give with attachemtn that they may make what you consider positive changes, are you really giving or are you trading?
Give freely and freely it will be given
withold judgment and judgement will be witheld

just my opinions, heavily influenced by many before me
thanks for participating
neil

Neil

Pandara · 09-04-2008, 10:24 PM

Namaste Neil,

Two tings:
A) My thought is very simple regarding this: I am the keeper of my brother, no matter who or what or where he/she may be in life. If karma/life brought him/her over my path there is a reason and I must serve my fellow human in whatever way possible, even if I have to buy him a pair of shoes.

B) As my own teacher used to say to me: "never judge, always have compassion because but for the Grace of the Divine there goes I."

Just other thoughts.

InnerAthlete · 09-05-2008, 01:31 AM

There is no question here (a yoga forum) as to whether one should have compassion or not. That answer is "absolutely"!

The question is in what way does compassion manifest.
Sometimes "help" means not enabling - be it psychosis or neurosis. Sometimes help means intervention.

But all this (in this question) presumes the seer has clarity of view.

I would contend, Neil, that if you bought such a man a pair of shoes and gave them to him graciously with a smile and he said "f-off banal bourgeois ass" you'd been none too smiley.

Aaron · 09-05-2008, 05:21 AM

To the best of my knowledge, there are two ways to allow improvement (growth, change etc).

The first is to provide more power. To make circumstances easier and to make the previously difficult now easily achievable.
In this circumstance, a person still has their choices to make, and if they make productive ones then they will prosper more greatly than in any other circumstance. If however they make less than productive choices, they will return to the state they were in before you intervened.

The second is to influence weakness. Don't buy him some shoes, maybe spit on him instead. If he is capable of bettering himself he will not respond by becoming weaker but over time will resist the world's cruelty, and will (without need for assistance) make his life more comfortable.

Both result in ultimately the same outcome. Buy him shoes or don't buy him shoes? Whatever helps you sleep at night is the better choice.

justwannabe · 09-05-2008, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InnerAthlete

I would contend, Neil, that if you bought such a man a pair of shoes and gave them to him graciously with a smile and he said "f-off banal bourgeois ass" you'd been none too smiley.

and are you sure of your assumption of me, how do you know I would not laugh and find it funny?

InnerAthlete · 09-05-2008, 06:19 PM

Because you've just said so - LOL!

justwannabe · 09-05-2008, 07:04 PM

well then I misread "you'd been none too smiley" I read that is without smiles rather then with smiles, but I am not the best at grammer or defintions, I am more a conceptual person. So if I misread it my humble appologies
a smile for you

louise molenkamp · 09-06-2008, 04:15 PM

Just thought Who is giving shoes to whom? and who is recieving them?
And who do we have to improve?
You can also think you sleep very well on sleeping pil, but i am not so sure that makes the decisions right.
Louise

JenW · 09-08-2008, 02:43 AM

I think the giving/receiving of shoes or whatever, is heavily dependent on the context and the individual giver/receiver.
If the guy is ready at that point in time to accept shoes and use them in beneficial way, great. If not, maybe you are doing more harm than good. It could be the case of the fishing net and the skills to make his own nets. Maybe it would be better to help him access opportunities and skills to achieve a sense of self-worth that would then help him get his own new shoes in the future, if he chooses to ...
How to tell if he is ready for the shoes or not? Hopefully judgement and instict will show us the way.

09-03-2008, 07:18 PM	#1
justwannabe pañcashata Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 557	say there is a man who has very worn out shoes that hurt his feet. The only place he ever walks which warrent him needing shoes is to the liquor store. Would you buy him shoes anyways? more than thoughts Neil __________________ I am light, I am love, I am peace, I am kindness, I am happiness, I am here, it is now. I am, and so are you

09-03-2008, 09:56 PM	#3
InnerAthlete Mostly Good Egg Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Certified Purna Yoga Teacher - Seattle, WA Posts: 1,078	Well Neil, a most interesting post. What are you fishing for? Would I buy him shoes? No, in the scenario you present, I likely would not buy him shoes. It wouldn't matter if he were walking to Mount Sinai. That is to say it has nothing to do with the liquor store being a destination. I simply would not deprive a man of his experience. It is egotistical of me to believe he should do this or have that. What I do know is that he has choice and I have to respect the nature of his choice(s) relative to his contract in the physical body. Only he knows why he is here. I do not. __________________ ---- http://www.yogamojodojo.com http://www.teamyoga.com http://www.innerathlete.net/forum

09-04-2008, 09:17 AM	#4
justwannabe pañcashata Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 557	Basically I percieve it as a question/thought about compassion. How much sompassion do I really have. Would I judge his life choices as good or bad or would I just help in anyway I could? If I was in the same situation what would I want? If my desire is to live in love do I think and analyze his situation or do I just act? Maybe some se it as his karma, but when I have suffereed in my karma I am very greatful that I have been helped through the times I did not help myself. more than thoughts Neil __________________ I am light, I am love, I am peace, I am kindness, I am happiness, I am here, it is now. I am, and so are you

09-04-2008, 12:53 PM	#5
suryadaya trimshát Join Date: May 2008 Location: All over. Posts: 39	I would offer to buy him new shoes if he helped me put the new transmission in my car next week. He would get shoes, a new friend, perhaps a feeling of accomplishment; and I would have one extra person to help, which would be nice. Story time: When I was doing massage I used to help a gentleman who was an alcoholic, who only left the house for more beer and to go to work. He had few friends, no hobbies, no interests. His neck had an old injury and he needed help with it, but had little money to spare--probably because he spent it all on 24 packs of Busch Light from the gas station where I worked. I only ever charged him what he could afford to give me. Until I read this question I never even considered the notion that his choices or addiction should have made him unworthy of my time or services at low cost, and in fact if I had not been so low-income myself at the time I would have worked for free. Through this partnership I was able to gain experience, a friendship with someone who otherwise I may never have known, and I was able to offer what knowledge I had to help him better his life in many small ways beyond simply releasing muscles in his back. Perhaps the man with old shoes has never been shown the right way to help himself, and all he needs is the college student working behind the counter at the liquor store to give him a break and point him in the right direction. Maybe I'm idealistic, but I sleep well at night knowing that I have treated the strangers I meet like the family they are. Last edited by suryadaya; 09-04-2008 at 12:56 PM. Reason: forgot to finish a sentance :p

09-04-2008, 08:33 PM	#7
justwannabe pañcashata Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 557	louise, this is my thought on something you said My ego wants to help and have him change his life so I can tell myself I changed his life my heart will give freely and expect no change, giving to him without attachments, unconditional love. and maybe if I give freely he will not sense burden because I gave without attachments, this may allow him the freedom to change. So many people may want to help him change his life that he does not want help that comes with attachment If you give with attachemtn that they may make what you consider positive changes, are you really giving or are you trading? Give freely and freely it will be given withold judgment and judgement will be witheld just my opinions, heavily influenced by many before me thanks for participating neil Neil __________________ I am light, I am love, I am peace, I am kindness, I am happiness, I am here, it is now. I am, and so are you

09-03-2008, 09:21 PM	#2
JenW vimshatí Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Shanghai, China Posts: 23	Sure, I'd buy him new shoes. They might give him the motivation to go somewhere else ... for sure he'd never choose to walk beyond the liquor with his crappy old shoes?

09-04-2008, 01:15 PM	#6
louise molenkamp shatá Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Hoorn the Netherlands Posts: 111	Namaste all, Just maybe it is necessary for him that he realy can not wear his shoes anymore, his feet hurt so much and it is impossible to go to the liquorstore and then he is ready to call out for God. On the other hand maybe you are here to buy him shoes, do something nice for his feet as well and lett him experience love and kindness. Take a nice long walk and later on have a drink together. It is very hard to say what is good thing to do. I know sometimes it is better and more compassionate not to help. It is very difficult for your ego who wants to be helpfull and nice. Love and Light Louise

09-04-2008, 10:24 PM	#8
Pandara sátshata Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Pretoria, South Africa Posts: 665	Namaste Neil, Two tings: A) My thought is very simple regarding this: I am the keeper of my brother, no matter who or what or where he/she may be in life. If karma/life brought him/her over my path there is a reason and I must serve my fellow human in whatever way possible, even if I have to buy him a pair of shoes. B) As my own teacher used to say to me: "never judge, always have compassion because but for the Grace of the Divine there goes I." Just other thoughts. __________________ Blessings & Om's Pandara _____________________________________________ Serve, Love, Give, Purify, Meditate, Realise. - Swami Sivanada

09-05-2008, 01:31 AM	#9
InnerAthlete Mostly Good Egg Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Certified Purna Yoga Teacher - Seattle, WA Posts: 1,078	There is no question here (a yoga forum) as to whether one should have compassion or not. That answer is "absolutely"! The question is in what way does compassion manifest. Sometimes "help" means not enabling - be it psychosis or neurosis. Sometimes help means intervention. But all this (in this question) presumes the seer has clarity of view. I would contend, Neil, that if you bought such a man a pair of shoes and gave them to him graciously with a smile and he said "f-off banal bourgeois ass" you'd been none too smiley. __________________ ---- http://www.yogamojodojo.com http://www.teamyoga.com http://www.innerathlete.net/forum

09-05-2008, 05:21 AM	#10
Aaron vimshatí Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 29	To the best of my knowledge, there are two ways to allow improvement (growth, change etc). The first is to provide more power. To make circumstances easier and to make the previously difficult now easily achievable. In this circumstance, a person still has their choices to make, and if they make productive ones then they will prosper more greatly than in any other circumstance. If however they make less than productive choices, they will return to the state they were in before you intervened. The second is to influence weakness. Don't buy him some shoes, maybe spit on him instead. If he is capable of bettering himself he will not respond by becoming weaker but over time will resist the world's cruelty, and will (without need for assistance) make his life more comfortable. Both result in ultimately the same outcome. Buy him shoes or don't buy him shoes? Whatever helps you sleep at night is the better choice.

09-05-2008, 06:19 PM	#12
InnerAthlete Mostly Good Egg Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Certified Purna Yoga Teacher - Seattle, WA Posts: 1,078	Because you've just said so - LOL! __________________ ---- http://www.yogamojodojo.com http://www.teamyoga.com http://www.innerathlete.net/forum

09-05-2008, 07:04 PM	#13
justwannabe pañcashata Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 557	well then I misread "you'd been none too smiley" I read that is without smiles rather then with smiles, but I am not the best at grammer or defintions, I am more a conceptual person. So if I misread it my humble appologies a smile for you __________________ I am light, I am love, I am peace, I am kindness, I am happiness, I am here, it is now. I am, and so are you

09-06-2008, 04:15 PM	#14
louise molenkamp shatá Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Hoorn the Netherlands Posts: 111	Just thought Who is giving shoes to whom? and who is recieving them? And who do we have to improve? You can also think you sleep very well on sleeping pil, but i am not so sure that makes the decisions right. Louise

09-08-2008, 02:43 AM	#15
JenW vimshatí Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Shanghai, China Posts: 23	I think the giving/receiving of shoes or whatever, is heavily dependent on the context and the individual giver/receiver. If the guy is ready at that point in time to accept shoes and use them in beneficial way, great. If not, maybe you are doing more harm than good. It could be the case of the fishing net and the skills to make his own nets. Maybe it would be better to help him access opportunities and skills to achieve a sense of self-worth that would then help him get his own new shoes in the future, if he chooses to ... How to tell if he is ready for the shoes or not? Hopefully judgement and instict will show us the way.