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Old 07-11-2011, 09:45 AM   #1411
Budoyo
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Originally Posted by twilightatdusk View Post
Namaste Surya Deva, Nieztsche

I am a Indian girl living overseas. I stumbled upon this website while doing an unrelated search. What a fascinating thread. I stayed up half the night to read all 47 pages.

I respect your intellectual honesty and your ability to call a spade a spade. You are right, Yoga IS Hinduism. Your's was a cogent argument, with proof and tangible evidence. You have refuted weak, outmoded Oriental and post-colonial theories, and your knowledge base of Dharmic and Western scriptures is very impressive.

I am not a debater by any means but have lived long enough in the West to observe a few things. Yes, they are anecdotal, but permit me to make a few comments.

It seems to me that there is something in the Judaeo-Christian construct of the world that does not allow for a competing, equally-valid, advanced paradigm that is not the same as theirs. Where they cannot convert, they will subvert or at least attempt to do so. One can see this in the institutionalized opposition to *specifically* Hinduism and all its aspects. By institutional opposition I mean that at the highest levels, there is strong negation of Hindu influence, both ancient and modern; and, all the while there is blatant appropriation of our Hindu ideals, techniques, concepts, food, medical knowledge, and yes, even culture. There is no acknowledgement of the source of most, if not all, borrowed ideas and techniques.

This is evident in the attitudes I have read here on pretty much every page, from posters like LotusGirl and Indra Deva among others. This is not surprising, because my reading of them is that they represent a dilute, more PC face of a Western institutional bias. It is so ingrained that they cannot even see the bias, and find your vociferous opining as threatening. Their negation and denials are in fact valid, because (from their point of view) to allow that this IS simple truth for which you are debating, is to open a Pandora's Box to the deeper, more insidious lies, harms and thievery that the West has perpetrated on India and Hindus. To acknowledge the source/the seed is dangerous for them, because it undermines the Christian/Western superiority idiom. One sees this in many ways here, and on many other forums as well.

- Refusing to acknowledge that Yoga is Hinduism, the dharmic way
- Trying to portray Yoga as a New-Age, Buddhist (and belonging to practically any other religion and tradition), EXCEPT Hinduism
- When the above two arguments don't work, then claiming Yoga-predates-Hinduism
- Blatantly appropriating medical Ayurvedic knowledge - go to any Whole Foods today, and see their Health section, full of Ayurvedic herbs and medicines, with no mention of them being part of Hinduism and the Hindu concious. See their literature shelves sagging under the weight of new-age gurus like Deepak Chopra, and Yoga books from esoteric healers with nary a mention of Hinduism.
- Trying to wrest our ancient knowledge - putting patents on Haldi, basmati, seeds (Monsanto anyone?), cumin, the use of any spice really
- Cusine - yes, appropriating our knowledge and use of spices, our cooking techniques. Even today, if you were to read a book or visit a culinary forum of importance, the Hindu cusine is not acknowledged as one of the world's greats as are French, Italian, (and now Chinese, but only because they have the muscle to insist on it). And yet, the cuisine of India is one of the subtlest, most innovative, scientific, and creative cusine there is. To my palate there isn't a better or more delicious and refined cuisine, and I mean that genuinely, not in a rhetorical rah rah fashion. But you will never find this aknowledgement of the Hindu cuisine in any of the books written by the most revered Western chefs. Vegetarian Hindu cuisine is reviled and mocked (Anthony Bourdain et al). Curry is mocked, though people still relish it. A 'curry powder' has been 'invented' and used in the West and Japan, even though over and over it has been explained to people that there is no one generic 'curry'dish, but an Indian cooking technique.

- The inappropriate use of images of Hindu Gods and Godesses - American Apparel summer chappals with little Ganeshas all over them; Lakme owned by HLL (a subsidiary of the European Unilever) - a corruption of the name of goddess Laxmi.

- In fashion - Kurtis (all the rage in the Americas) and other garments such as the salwar, Indian embroidery and textile methods, being bought up/manufactured for pennies by Western designers for their new-new collections, with NO ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of the source (as long as it was Hindu India of course). The popularity of bindis and Indian jewellery, our jhola bags, bicchuas, and kolhapuri chappals, Indian motifs and again, no recognition. It is all part of the things that come out of the mysterious-exotic-East-with-no-name. Why is this?

I have attended Yoga studios and have found the attitude to a brown Indian girl to be condescending - "Look, we are teaching you this great ancient practice that WE revived from the ancient-East-not-Hindu thankyouverymuchnamaste". Saying Namaste does not make one a Yogi.

I am a modern Indian from an educated family. But if you really go to brass tacks, then in modern India we are considered an OBC. But in the last 5 generations of my immediate and extended family there is not one poor, oppressed, backward person. All are educated to the highest levels possible for their aptitude and abilities. My parents rose from humble beginnings and never faced any stigmas on account of being an OBC, and neither did I or any of my siblings. We NEVER received help from anyone. My father by nature is a Kshatriya, and my mother a Brahmin (she is an intellectual and he is bold, fearless, and honest) but they were born as OBC, whatever that may mean. Therefore I find that people like the Dalits on this website, are pushing their own version of history on this forum because it benefits them to do so. In today's world, there are many so-called backward classes including Dalits, who are NOT oppressed or economically backward in any way. They enjoy the same economic, social, political freedom that all of us do.

Yes, there are poor Dalits who may face discrimination and oppression. But this happens to poor, disenfranchised people EVERYWHERE in the world, including the US, Great Britain, Europe, Australia and other bastions of human rights and humanity. I find it very interesting and disingenuous how on this forum only the Indian Caste System is over and over reviled as a form of human rights abuse, when in fact all the Western/Christian and Muslim nations have their own institutional bodies to do this for them.

Just a little tidbit, a Kuwaiti woman politician recently called for Kuwaiti men to purchase white war booty from the Central Asian/former Russian countries belt (but only if they are at least 15 years old, because we are so modern!) so they are not tempted outside of their marriage. This is, of course, perfectly ok because it is condoned by the Quran. These are your modern humanitarian countries for you! And yet you deny the dharmic people even their roots.

It is beyond shameful. This is a distinct trend of distortion of history and facts and truth. It is denying our people their traditions and culture.

It is not PC to speak of these things no. But I have long been troubled and weighed down by these distortions. So thank you, Surya Deva and others for speaking so forcefully. I, at least, have taken note and listened.

Am white, wife is Chinese. I do practice the physical form of yoga, and I also eat beef regularly. I fail to see how that makes me Hindu in some form or fashion.

Also, (like you going to a yoga class), when we go to a PF Chang's, we get a kick out of a white waiter or waitress trying to 'teach' us how to mix their sauces at the table...my wife will have a restrained 'whataever' look to her face. We choose to find it amusing, but I could see how one could find it insulting to some degree.

Also, NOT sure how China's economic might has anything to do with getting Chinese food up as recognized as one of the world's cuisines...since I have MANY white friends who do not have to forced at gunpoint to go eat at some of our favorite Chinese restaurants..apparently many non-Chinese people actually love eating Chinese food.

Just have to remember....appreciation of cuisines is fairly subjective, and likely is influenced by the food that you grew up on.

And for the record, though Anthony Bourdain has mocked Vegetarian food, he has travelled to India on a few occasions and remarked how Indian food has made him love the vegetarian fare he sampled. Have you actually watched an episode??

Wouldn't worry though...eventually the population of India is projected to overtake China in 10 years...and the rapid and stunning economic achievements of Desi Americans in the US cannot be ignored for too long, in fact, they are a Model Minority. You're doing well here in the West!!
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Old 07-13-2011, 06:37 AM   #1412
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Hey guys, hope all are doing good..!!
Yoga was originated in India, but its largely followed in all parts of the world now.
Despite of getting into the argument of origin, lets start discussing about the Yoga practices/meditation. I had join this forum as I was thinking is more about the yoga discussion and everybody is benefited with it..

So lets all discuss about some yoga now..
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Old 07-14-2011, 01:58 PM   #1413
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Anand,

"What passes as knowledge in Modern times is "Avidya." The only way to avoid repetition of history is to let more and more people into yoga. "

Groping in the darkness of one's own ignorance, before even considering assisting another towards their own innermost light, settle your own condition. Far too much damage has been created because people who were absolutely unconscious were trying to help others who were also absolutely unconscious - a downward spiral of the blind assisting the blind. Forget the whole world, first discover your own medicine before prescribing it to others.
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Old 07-14-2011, 08:40 PM   #1414
Anand Kulkarni
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Originally Posted by AmirMourad View Post
Anand,

"What passes as knowledge in Modern times is "Avidya." The only way to avoid repetition of history is to let more and more people into yoga. "

Groping in the darkness of one's own ignorance, before even considering assisting another towards their own innermost light, settle your own condition. Far too much damage has been created because people who were absolutely unconscious were trying to help others who were also absolutely unconscious - a downward spiral of the blind assisting the blind. Forget the whole world, first discover your own medicine before prescribing it to others.
Dear Friend:

Thanks for the advice. Here is a story I got from a "blind" friend. It's for everyone:

Two Horses: Author Unknown

Just up the road from my home is a field, with two horses in it.

From a distance, each horse looks like any other horse. But if you stop your car, or are walking by, you will notice something quite amazing....
Looking into the eyes of one horse will disclose that he is blind. His owner has chosen not to have him put down, but has made a good home for him.

This alone is amazing.

If you stand nearby and listen, you will hear the sound of a bell. Looking around for the source of the sound, you will see that it comes from the smaller horse in the field.
Attached to the horse's halter is a small bell. It lets the blind friend know where the other horse is, so he can follow.

As you stand and watch these two friends, you'll see that the horse with the bell is always checking on the blind horse, and that the blind horse will listen for the bell and then slowly walk to where the other horse is, trusting that he will not be led astray.

When the horse with the bell returns to the shelter of the barn each evening, it stops occasionally and looks back, making sure that the blind friend isn't too far behind to hear the bell.

Like the owners of these two horses, God does not throw us away just because we are not perfect or because we have problems or challenges.

He watches over us and even brings others into our lives to help us when we are in need.

Sometimes we are the blind horse; being guided by the little ringing bell of those whom God places in our lives.

Other times we are the guide horse, helping others to find their way....
Good friends are like that... You may not always see them, but you may trust that they are always there.
Be kinder than necessary - - - Believe that almost everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

Live simply,
Love generously,
Care deeply,
Speak kindly.......

And leave the rest to God!

FOR WE WALK BY FAITH AND NOT BY SIGHT !!!!
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Old 07-16-2011, 06:12 PM   #1415
Kasi
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So well stated!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by twilightatdusk View Post
namaste surya deva, nieztsche

i am a indian girl living overseas. I stumbled upon this website while doing an unrelated search. What a fascinating thread. I stayed up half the night to read all 47 pages.

i respect your intellectual honesty and your ability to call a spade a spade. You are right, yoga is hinduism. Your's was a cogent argument, with proof and tangible evidence. You have refuted weak, outmoded oriental and post-colonial theories, and your knowledge base of dharmic and western scriptures is very impressive.

I am not a debater by any means but have lived long enough in the west to observe a few things. Yes, they are anecdotal, but permit me to make a few comments.

It seems to me that there is something in the judaeo-christian construct of the world that does not allow for a competing, equally-valid, advanced paradigm that is not the same as theirs. Where they cannot convert, they will subvert or at least attempt to do so. One can see this in the institutionalized opposition to *specifically* hinduism and all its aspects. By institutional opposition i mean that at the highest levels, there is strong negation of hindu influence, both ancient and modern; and, all the while there is blatant appropriation of our hindu ideals, techniques, concepts, food, medical knowledge, and yes, even culture. There is no acknowledgement of the source of most, if not all, borrowed ideas and techniques.

This is evident in the attitudes i have read here on pretty much every page, from posters like lotusgirl and indra deva among others. This is not surprising, because my reading of them is that they represent a dilute, more pc face of a western institutional bias. It is so ingrained that they cannot even see the bias, and find your vociferous opining as threatening. Their negation and denials are in fact valid, because (from their point of view) to allow that this is simple truth for which you are debating, is to open a pandora's box to the deeper, more insidious lies, harms and thievery that the west has perpetrated on india and hindus. To acknowledge the source/the seed is dangerous for them, because it undermines the christian/western superiority idiom. One sees this in many ways here, and on many other forums as well.

- refusing to acknowledge that yoga is hinduism, the dharmic way
- trying to portray yoga as a new-age, buddhist (and belonging to practically any other religion and tradition), except hinduism
- when the above two arguments don't work, then claiming yoga-predates-hinduism
- blatantly appropriating medical ayurvedic knowledge - go to any whole foods today, and see their health section, full of ayurvedic herbs and medicines, with no mention of them being part of hinduism and the hindu concious. See their literature shelves sagging under the weight of new-age gurus like deepak chopra, and yoga books from esoteric healers with nary a mention of hinduism.
- trying to wrest our ancient knowledge - putting patents on haldi, basmati, seeds (monsanto anyone?), cumin, the use of any spice really
- cusine - yes, appropriating our knowledge and use of spices, our cooking techniques. Even today, if you were to read a book or visit a culinary forum of importance, the hindu cusine is not acknowledged as one of the world's greats as are french, italian, (and now chinese, but only because they have the muscle to insist on it). And yet, the cuisine of india is one of the subtlest, most innovative, scientific, and creative cusine there is. To my palate there isn't a better or more delicious and refined cuisine, and i mean that genuinely, not in a rhetorical rah rah fashion. But you will never find this aknowledgement of the hindu cuisine in any of the books written by the most revered western chefs. Vegetarian hindu cuisine is reviled and mocked (anthony bourdain et al). Curry is mocked, though people still relish it. A 'curry powder' has been 'invented' and used in the west and japan, even though over and over it has been explained to people that there is no one generic 'curry'dish, but an indian cooking technique.

- the inappropriate use of images of hindu gods and godesses - american apparel summer chappals with little ganeshas all over them; lakme owned by hll (a subsidiary of the european unilever) - a corruption of the name of goddess laxmi.

- in fashion - kurtis (all the rage in the americas) and other garments such as the salwar, indian embroidery and textile methods, being bought up/manufactured for pennies by western designers for their new-new collections, with no acknowledgement of the source (as long as it was hindu india of course). The popularity of bindis and indian jewellery, our jhola bags, bicchuas, and kolhapuri chappals, indian motifs and again, no recognition. It is all part of the things that come out of the mysterious-exotic-east-with-no-name. Why is this?

I have attended yoga studios and have found the attitude to a brown indian girl to be condescending - "look, we are teaching you this great ancient practice that we revived from the ancient-east-not-hindu thankyouverymuchnamaste". Saying namaste does not make one a yogi.

I am a modern indian from an educated family. But if you really go to brass tacks, then in modern india we are considered an obc. But in the last 5 generations of my immediate and extended family there is not one poor, oppressed, backward person. All are educated to the highest levels possible for their aptitude and abilities. My parents rose from humble beginnings and never faced any stigmas on account of being an obc, and neither did i or any of my siblings. We never received help from anyone. My father by nature is a kshatriya, and my mother a brahmin (she is an intellectual and he is bold, fearless, and honest) but they were born as obc, whatever that may mean. Therefore i find that people like the dalits on this website, are pushing their own version of history on this forum because it benefits them to do so. In today's world, there are many so-called backward classes including dalits, who are not oppressed or economically backward in any way. They enjoy the same economic, social, political freedom that all of us do.

Yes, there are poor dalits who may face discrimination and oppression. But this happens to poor, disenfranchised people everywhere in the world, including the us, great britain, europe, australia and other bastions of human rights and humanity. I find it very interesting and disingenuous how on this forum only the indian caste system is over and over reviled as a form of human rights abuse, when in fact all the western/christian and muslim nations have their own institutional bodies to do this for them.

Just a little tidbit, a kuwaiti woman politician recently called for kuwaiti men to purchase white war booty from the central asian/former russian countries belt (but only if they are at least 15 years old, because we are so modern!) so they are not tempted outside of their marriage. This is, of course, perfectly ok because it is condoned by the quran. These are your modern humanitarian countries for you! And yet you deny the dharmic people even their roots.

It is beyond shameful. This is a distinct trend of distortion of history and facts and truth. It is denying our people their traditions and culture.

It is not pc to speak of these things no. But i have long been troubled and weighed down by these distortions. So thank you, surya deva and others for speaking so forcefully. I, at least, have taken note and listened.
:d:d:d
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Old 07-23-2011, 04:29 PM   #1416
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:d:d:d
Thank you. This thread makes me sad.
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Old 07-23-2011, 04:31 PM   #1417
twilightatdusk
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That read like a diss Amir. Was that your intent?
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Old 07-23-2011, 05:36 PM   #1418
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Originally Posted by Budoyo View Post
Am white, wife is Chinese. I do practice the physical form of yoga, and I also eat beef regularly. I fail to see how that makes me Hindu in some form or fashion.
If I go to mass every Sunday, take part in communion, mingle with a community that is based on the precepts of the RC Church, would I or would I not be a Catholic for all practical purposes? If there is a point otherwise? Then everything is everything. Are you saying there is no difference between a Hindu, a Catholic, and a Muslim, from a religious perspective?

Anyway, your being Hindu or not isn't even the point. Yoga is Hinduism, and to deny that is to subvert the religion. You must ask yourself why you are practicing Yoga (even the physical form), and not some other form of exercise. I sure as heck would wonder if I started attending mass and found meaning in liturgy. And therein lies the rub...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Budoyo View Post
Also, (like you going to a yoga class), when we go to a PF Chang's, we get a kick out of a white waiter or waitress trying to 'teach' us how to mix their sauces at the table...my wife will have a restrained 'whataever' look to her face. We choose to find it amusing, but I could see how one could find it insulting to some degree.
I did find it amusing initially. Hey, these guys like Yoga...that's cool. But there is a distant mocking undertone that is hard for me to explain. I try not to get all conspiracy-theorish about it, but it was very puzzling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Budoyo View Post
Also, NOT sure how China's economic might has anything to do with getting Chinese food up as recognized as one of the world's cuisines...
You misunderstand me. A cuisine may be enjoyed by all, but yet it may not get it's due from an 'influence' standpoint. The Chinese have a very rich, varied, and refined cuisine (and many schools of it too), as do Indians. I can't help but theorize that the widespread respect accorded to Chinese cuisine is in conjunction with China's rise in economic power and it's importance in world politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Budoyo View Post
And for the record, though Anthony Bourdain has mocked Vegetarian food, he has travelled to India on a few occasions and remarked how Indian food has made him love the vegetarian fare he sampled. Have you actually watched an episode??
He has written a book where he dissed vegetarians and has been quoted as disliking vegetarians (because they all look the same!). Now he has a travel show on TV, and all of a sudden he loves them? I don't buy it. I have watched his show btw. Here is a little sound byte from Tony:

"Vegetarians, and their Hezbollah-like splinter-faction, the vegans, are a persistent irritant to any chef worth a damn."

Poor vegans. Tony doesn't love you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Budoyo View Post
Wouldn't worry though...eventually the population of India is projected to overtake China in 10 years...and the rapid and stunning economic achievements of Desi Americans in the US cannot be ignored for too long, in fact, they are a Model Minority. You're doing well here in the West!!
It worries me, in all honesty, this rapid explosion. You are conflating the rise of India with the accomplishments of erstwhile Indians in the West. I'm not sure the two are the same thing. I hope so.
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Old 07-23-2011, 07:03 PM   #1419
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Originally Posted by Surya Deva View Post
I very much enjoyed reading your post. It is unfortunate that I cannot have a extensive dialogue with you, as I seldom have time to log onto the net now. I have to say I agree with every point you raised. There certainly does seem to be an anti-Hindu agenda at a deep rooted level in the West. The appropriation of our culture, religion, philosophies etc, while denying it comes from our enlightened religion is indeed visible. But why is this happening? Now, while residing in India currently and having dialogued with a few Indians, I will suggest one main reason for these happenings: Indian people don't give a damn.

China asserts its culture and history globally and this is why the West cannot get away with appropriation and distortion of its culture and history. Indians do the exact opposite: they malign their own culture. They blame Hinduism for their degraded state today, the poverty, the corruption and the unfortunate history of foreign invasions. Indian gurus, holy men, rishis and sages no longer form the backbone of Indian society - at best they are approached with skepticism, and at worst they are all derided as frauds and charlatans. On the contrary, the backbone of Indian society today are Bollywood celebrities, pop stars, actors, dancer - all dancing to Western tunes. Almost all of the Indians I have talked to, have rubbished their own culture and history. This being the Indian mentality today, it should not be surprising that the West openly appropriates and distorts Hinduism - and gets away with it.

Indian people, at large are condemned people. They are some of the worst charactered people you can meet in the world today. Many Indian people justify their low behaviour by saying this is Kaliyuga, we are just matching the times. I will say I share their pessimism, the times have changed - India is dead. It will never return. Hinduism will continue to thrive, but not in third world India, but in America.
Surya Deva,

Firstly, I realized, quite after the fact, that my post was a rehash of what many Hindus on this forum have been saying! Mea maxima culpa, but I was very excited to read this thread.

Your reply really pains me. Everyone needs hope Surya Deva. Without it, all is lost. If intellectual people like yourself lose hope, then what can the rest of us expect? This is not how any kind of war is won, be it moral, intellectual, or national. The duty of any kind of leader is to give hope. But before they do that, they themselves must have hope. What use is all this knowledge to you if it doesn't even do that? One may as well be in the most profound state of ignorance and be blissful (after a fashion).

I understand this despair. You grew up in the west; your frame of reference was developed not in situ. Now you are in India, and find that Indians can be rude, uncouth, materialistic, corrupt, and deluded. Like people everywhere actually. In the west to some extent people are not allowed to openly show their hand even if they hate someone. Therefore you feel that the West (I presume you mean the US when you speak of America) will be the true inheritors of the dharmic traditions because they are more dharmic than most Indians, as their material needs are already met. I am willing to eat my hat that you are dead wrong. The US is a deeply Christian country, albeit divided among all the subsects of Christianity. It is also a deeply materialistic and chauvanistic country. Its national image is irretrievably intertwined with the pan-European ancestry and religion of the majority population. In addition, it is bounded by a deeply Catholic country (Mexico) on one side and Canada on the other (I don't know quite how to classify Canada, except I don't see it as becoming Hindu anytime soon). These are not countries that will be the epicenter of Sanatana Dharma in the future. Please try to understand, as degraded a state as India is in now, and as selfish and materialistic Indians are, the home of Hinduism will always be India.

You seem to strongly feel otherwise.

That's fine. But here's the thing - life goes on, inexorably and inevitably,
so one has to choose how to live - with or without hope. The test of character is always what happens when rubber hits the road. If you find that your destiny is to be in the West, that's your choice and your path. But then BE that true intellectual warrior and be a proponent of Hinduism. Defend your faith and the history of your people. Do what you can. Such prodigious gifts of the mind are not to be thrown away in despair.

I still choose to have hope for my country and my people. I'm sad that you do not share this belief.
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:56 PM   #1420
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Originally Posted by twilightatdusk View Post
Surya Deva,

Firstly, I realized, quite after the fact, that my post was a rehash of what many Hindus on this forum have been saying! Mea maxima culpa, but I was very excited to read this thread.

Your reply really pains me. Everyone needs hope Surya Deva. Without it, all is lost. If intellectual people like yourself lose hope, then what can the rest of us expect? This is not how any kind of war is won, be it moral, intellectual, or national. The duty of any kind of leader is to give hope. But before they do that, they themselves must have hope. What use is all this knowledge to you if it doesn't even do that? One may as well be in the most profound state of ignorance and be blissful (after a fashion).

I understand this despair. You grew up in the west; your frame of reference was developed not in situ. Now you are in India, and find that Indians can be rude, uncouth, materialistic, corrupt, and deluded. Like people everywhere actually. In the west to some extent people are not allowed to openly show their hand even if they hate someone. Therefore you feel that the West (I presume you mean the US when you speak of America) will be the true inheritors of the dharmic traditions because they are more dharmic than most Indians, as their material needs are already met. I am willing to eat my hat that you are dead wrong. The US is a deeply Christian country, albeit divided among all the subsects of Christianity. It is also a deeply materialistic and chauvanistic country. Its national image is irretrievably intertwined with the pan-European ancestry and religion of the majority population. In addition, it is bounded by a deeply Catholic country (Mexico) on one side and Canada on the other (I don't know quite how to classify Canada, except I don't see it as becoming Hindu anytime soon). These are not countries that will be the epicenter of Sanatana Dharma in the future. Please try to understand, as degraded a state as India is in now, and as selfish and materialistic Indians are, the home of Hinduism will always be India.

You seem to strongly feel otherwise.

That's fine. But here's the thing - life goes on, inexorably and inevitably,
so one has to choose how to live - with or without hope. The test of character is always what happens when rubber hits the road. If you find that your destiny is to be in the West, that's your choice and your path. But then BE that true intellectual warrior and be a proponent of Hinduism. Defend your faith and the history of your people. Do what you can. Such prodigious gifts of the mind are not to be thrown away in despair.

I still choose to have hope for my country and my people. I'm sad that you do not share this belief.
Well done. Guru's Guru!
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Old 07-23-2011, 10:23 PM   #1421
Sarvamaṅgalamaṅgalā
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Great response, twilightatdusk!
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Old 07-24-2011, 04:22 PM   #1422
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Thank you. This thread makes me sad.
I think what you said was well stated. I don't understand where the :d:d:d came from or what it means. Either I made a typo or someone hacked into my account, which is possible as my yahoo account got hacked since I joined yoga forums.

Some people don't like that the outside world doesn't always agree with their 'looking within' solipsism traps. As I said, I like yoga and meditation but wonder why it attracts all kinds of weirdos. How good is your version of yoga if it makes you incapable of basic maturity? I am asking my imaginary hacker on this board...
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Old 07-27-2011, 12:31 AM   #1423
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Twilightatdusk,

Anthony Bourdain is a meat-eater and loves meat. Nonetheless he has a number of episodes where he's in India eating vegetarian food and likes it.

Indian cuisine is world famous. I don't know what you are talking about when you say its not recognized. What part of the world are you living in? Maybe there are no Indian restaurants where you live.

As far as yoga being a part of Hinduism, I've never heard this discussion at any yoga studio. Everyone goes there to do yoga and then go home. Not debate about whether or not yoga came from Hindu culture. Of course it did. What other culture would it have come from?

As far as you saying what you say is "not pc" - LOL! What's not "politically correct" about it?

Quote:
"Indian people, at large are condemned people. They are some of the worst charactered people you can meet in the world today. Many Indian people justify their low behaviour by saying this is Kaliyuga, we are just matching the times. I will say I share their pessimism, the times have changed - India is dead. It will never return. Hinduism will continue to thrive, but not in third world India, but in America. "
SuryaDeva, I agree with you 100%

The reason the ideals of Hinduism will thrive in the US and other Western countries is because of its progressivism and liberalism. Indians are caught up in backward mentality. They think "progress" is driving a new car to a fancy mall in Gurgaon (instead of walking to get rid of their fat asses), and then returning home to beat their daughter-in-law.

My grandmother keeps begging to be allowed to arrange my marriage in India and I say there is NO way I would live in this country permanantly anymore as a woman, much less a married one.

The West has the right mix of women's rights, human rights, childrens' rights, animal rights (veganism is on the rise, in India they make do with lacto-vegetarianism linked to caste or tradition rather than any sense of compassion for animals) and an awakened environmentalism that is compatible with the yogic vision.

India's population is too large and too uncivilized to make it a place conducive to true progressive values. It's dog eat dog and every man for himself. Complete chaos.

If the West can curb its immigration of Muslims, I see it becoming increasingly more and more Hindu in terms of philosophy (sans the backwardness).
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Old 07-27-2011, 06:49 PM   #1424
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Hypocrisy of the first order

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Anthony Bourdain is a meat-eater and loves meat. Nonetheless he has a number of episodes where he's in India eating vegetarian food and likes it.
I have no problem with meat eaters. Anthony Bourdain has a problem with vegetarians, which he has gone on record to state many times. Anyway, he was an example of a common phenomenon. Thank you for explaining it away so patronizingly.

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Originally Posted by GORI YOGINI View Post
The reason the ideals of Hinduism will thrive in the US and other Western countries is because of its progressivism and liberalism. Indians are caught up in backward mentality. They think "progress" is driving a new car to a fancy mall in Gurgaon (instead of walking to get rid of their fat asses), and then returning home to beat their daughter-in-law.
Your lady-in-manor chip is showing. So what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander? How arrogant to say that Indians consider going to a fancy mall as progress. Don't people go to malls in the Western countries? Can I presume by your statement that you never go to a mall because you are so ‘enlightened’? And of course, enlightened people never go to malls, as we all know!

Remind me again, wasn't a 6 foot tall man trampled to death at a major shopping center in 2008/2009 (or thereabouts) by an early horde of Black Friday shoppers? Yes, very civilized.

Westerners can drive new cars, go to fancy malls, eat in fancy restaurants, go home and beat their spouses/children/pets to death (yes, domestic violence is pretty common here in the West) and never be accused of being backward.

Now if an Indian drives a new car, goes to a fancy mall, Dear Lord they are ass-backwards and materialistic and their sins need to be forgiven. They need to be saved from themselves, and their roots appropriated because the West is so much better at managing these things.

Fat asses? That's the height of irony considering the US has some of the fattest people I've ever seen.

I see what you are doing here. I like how you take all your cliches and biases and neatly weave them together. Very well done.

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My grandmother keeps begging to be allowed to arrange my marriage in India and I say there is NO way I would live in this country permanantly anymore as a woman, much less a married one.
Indeed, that may have been your experience, but it hasn't been mine. Living in India as a married or unmarried woman is not such a bad thing as you imagine it to be. It is a different life to be sure, but it can be rewarding in its own way. I think you have been fed a pretty steady diet of Western emancipation literature to think that no such thing exists for Indian women.

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Originally Posted by GORI YOGINI View Post
The West has the right mix of women's rights, human rights, childrens' rights, animal rights… (veganism is on the rise, in India they make do with lacto-vegetarianism linked to caste or tradition rather than any sense of compassion for animals) and an awakened environmentalism that is compatible with the yogic vision.
What is a ‘right mix? I do think Western society allows for rights and freedom but they’re not the only ones. The Indian constitution also protects women's rights. Are you saying this does not happen in India? There are other changes coming to India, slowly but surely. There is awareness of animal suffering but there is tremendous human suffering there as well, and inevitably that takes precedence. How cruddy of you to say this…
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"...in India they make do with lacto-vegetarianism linked to caste or tradition rather than any sense of compassion for animals..."
"Make do"? Wow, you're bitter. How do you know that they just make do? The fact that it is codified in the religion, is making do? I don't get your logic. Does the US protect the rights of animals in those horrific pig and beef factory farms, whose runoff has even reached the Gulf of Mexico? Whose entrails are available for your delight at every corner deli? Because they’re ‘farmed’ far away from your local yoga studio, so you can’t hear their screams, feel their fear? So it doesn’t impinge on your perfect FREE life. You are like every other Westerner (and from your grandmother comment, you’re not even really white) paying lip service to compassion as long as you get milk for $1.99 a gallon at your grocery store.

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Originally Posted by GORI YOGINI View Post
India's population is too large and too uncivilized to make it a place conducive to true progressive values. It's dog eat dog and every man for himself. Complete chaos.
Please tell me – what is too large, and too uncivilized? What does civilization mean to you really? What is a ‘progressive’ value?

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Originally Posted by GORI YOGINI View Post
It's dog eat dog and every man for himself.
Clearly, this never happens in the West per your diatribe.

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Originally Posted by GORI YOGINI View Post
Complete chaos.
If you were a true yogini per your moniker, you’d be able to see past the chaos. But you’re not I suspect.

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Originally Posted by GORI YOGINI View Post
If the West can curb its immigration of Muslims, I see it becoming increasingly more and more Hindu in terms of philosophy (sans the backwardness).
What a paradise you must live in. Free of all influences, begged, borrowed, or stolen.

You are either a remarkably ignorant woman or a clever one. Or both. I get the sense that you delight in stirring the pot. India is a very paradoxical country. For everything you hold to be dear and true, in India you will find the opposite. I’m glad you and SD are in such cohesive agreement. I think you would be singing a very different tune if India was materially more prosperous and less populated.
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Old 07-27-2011, 09:59 PM   #1425
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Dear twilightatdusk,

Kudos! You are great! We need your continued support here. Your answers are great. I was so happy to read your answer and so I read three times again and again to my heart content.

Thanks & Kudos once again! Keep it up!
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Old 07-28-2011, 03:44 AM   #1426
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I have no problem with meat eaters. Anthony Bourdain has a problem with vegetarians, which he has gone on record to state many times.
So? Why does that bother you? He's allowed to have his opinions. Do we have to censor TV shows now so as not to hurt the sentiments of various foodies?

Quote:
Living in India as a married or unmarried woman is not such a bad thing as you imagine it to be.
"Imagine"? LOL. I was born there. I lived there. I go there every year.

I recommend you read SuryaDeva's experience. Poor guy, he had such high hopes of experiencing the wonderful, spiritual people of the Land of Rishis and quickly his delusions were smashed forever. Its 3 pages long and worth a read. I had similar experiences and so have my siblings and many others.

http://www.yogaforums.com/forums/f29/namaste-8266.html
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Old 07-28-2011, 10:22 AM   #1427
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So? Why does that bother you? He's allowed to have his opinions. Do we have to censor TV shows now so as not to hurt the sentiments of various foodies?
"Imagine"? LOL. I was born there. I lived there. I go there every year.

I recommend you read SuryaDeva's experience. Poor guy, he had such high hopes of experiencing the wonderful, spiritual people of the Land of Rishis and quickly his delusions were smashed forever. Its 3 pages long and worth a read. I had similar experiences and so have my siblings and many others.
Nobody is being censored. My initial point was that Indian cusine is not given the respect of a 'world cuisine' like Italian, French, Chinese, and to some degree even the Thai cuisines are. And I still stand by that.

You do not live in India in the present tense, you 'visit'. You left India for a better life, so you, my dear, are a materialist. Which is fine, but then you make such a show of being a yogini. And even if you did live in India, my point still stands - all Indian women do not have hellish lives. Perhaps yours was. Maybe that's what colors your judgement. Of course, by your logic all women in the West have it really really good. There's the patronization again.

SD can be forgiven for finding India a shock to his system. He grew up in the uber-sanitized West. I think he is a confused soul...his moorings are Indian, but his sensibilities are Western (I get that sense, but I may be wrong since I don't know him at all). Your despise of India and Indians is pretty obvious. But the funny thing is, you're really hating yourself.
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Old 07-28-2011, 10:28 AM   #1428
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Originally Posted by twilightatdusk View Post

You do not live in India in the present tense, you 'visit'. You left India for a better life, so you, my dear, are a materialist. Which is fine, but then you make such a show of being a yogini. And even if you did live in India, my point still stands - all Indian women do not have hellish lives. Perhaps yours was. Maybe that's what colors your judgement. Of course, by your logic all women in the West have it really really good. There's the patronization again.

Your despise of India and Indians is pretty obvious. But the funny thing is, you're really hating yourself.
Excellent points
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Old 07-28-2011, 02:13 PM   #1429
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"You do not live in India in the present tense"
Where are you?

Quote:
"You left India for a better life, so you, my dear, are a materialist.
So everyone who was born in India but ends up somewhere else is a "materialist"? Wow.

Quote:
"all Indian women do not have hellish lives. Perhaps yours was. Maybe that's what colors your judgement. Of course, by your logic all women in the West have it really really good. "
I never said "all". There are general patterns that develop over time. The patterns that developed where I live currently are patterns that work really well for women.

I know that Feminism is gaining firm ground in India right now and I fully support it. In fact one of my cousins will be covering Besharmi Morcha in New Delhi.

Quote:
"SD can be forgiven for finding India a shock to his system. He grew up in the uber-sanitized West. I think he is a confused soul...his moorings are Indian, but his sensibilities are Western "
If his sensibilities are "western" and he is shocked at the level of crude behaviour and abuse he sees in India, then are you saying that crude behaviour and abuse are "Indian sensibilities"?!

I reject that. There are some universal standards of behaviour and what SuryaDeva is experiencing will sadden any empathetic human being, whether Western or Eastern.

If India has any future at all it will be because of people like SuryaDeva and the Indian women like my cousins who are organizing for social change.
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Old 07-28-2011, 03:27 PM   #1430
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Originally Posted by GORI YOGINI View Post
Where are you?
Does it matter, where I am?

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Originally Posted by GORI YOGINI View Post
So everyone who was born in India but ends up somewhere else is a "materialist"? Wow.
Did I say everyone? I was referring to you. Did you leave for altruistic reasons then? In which case, I stand corrected.

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Originally Posted by GORI YOGINI View Post
"all Indian women do not have hellish lives. Perhaps yours was. Maybe that's what colors your judgement. Of course, by your logic all women in the West have it really really good. "

I never said "all".
But you implied it.

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Originally Posted by GORI YOGINI View Post
There are general patterns that develop over time. The patterns that developed where I live currently are patterns that work really well for women.
See, now you will defend your right to go from the general to particular, and vice versa, but that doesn't apply to others yeah? What are these patterns? How do you know they work well for all women? You don't. You just *think* they do. How do you know these patterns don't exist for Indian women?


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Originally Posted by GORI YOGINI View Post
I know that Feminism is gaining firm ground in India right now and I fully support it. In fact one of my cousins will be covering Besharmi Morcha in New Delhi.
Now you're backtracking. Your initial stance was that women in India have it really really bad.


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Originally Posted by GORI YOGINI View Post
My Quote - "SD can be forgiven for finding India a shock to his system. He grew up in the uber-sanitized West. I think he is a confused soul...his moorings are Indian, but his sensibilities are Western "

If his sensibilities are "western" and he is shocked at the level of crude behaviour and abuse he sees in India, then are you saying that crude behaviour and abuse are "Indian sensibilities"?!
You have a genius for conflating issues and biases. A shock to one's system can come from exposure to something one hasn't experienced before. These different things are not necessarily bad things, just different from what one is used to.

I can see many reasons for someone raised in the West to get gobsmacked when they go to India - the heat, dust, the swirling crowds, the noise, color, spices, difference in accents, stray dogsandcowsandparrotsandmynas and everything else besides. It's a different way of being and it throws one off kilter in a second. India is a paradoxical country. What I'm hearing from you is this - crude behavior and abuse are the domain of poor countries, not of the civilized West. You keep telling yourself that.

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Originally Posted by GORI YOGINI View Post
I reject that. There are some universal standards of behaviour and what SuryaDeva is experiencing will sadden any empathetic
human being, whether Western or Eastern.
I cannot speak for SD's experience in India since I wasn't there. I read his 'report' . Perhaps he had never had anyone behave badly in front of him or with him before. I can also give reports of NRI Indians who come back to India and behave in extremely boorish and pathetic ways with their families and people in general, or of greedy people I know in the West who wouldn't part with a dime even for a dear friend, but I won't. You know why? Because I think it is human nature. It is within us how we behave, and behaving badly, being vicious, cruel, mean is neither confined nor dictated by prosperity or lack thereof. And that in no way lessens my sympathy with SD or anyone else who has gone through a hateful experience.

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If India has any future at all it will be because of people like SuryaDeva and the Indian women like my cousins who are organizing for social change.
Perhaps. Maybe not. Everybody has agendas. I think it was AmirMourad who said something genius on motives on another thread and it really struck me at the time.

It is pretty clear from your comments and disgust with Indians that you consider it a backward country. Poor old India, if it were a little less shabby and a little more rich people like Gori Yogini would be all over it like a rash. THEN you would have no problem with Yoga being Hindu or proclaiming yourself Hindu. You're ashamed of your country is what you are. You're ashamed of being an (erstwhile?) Indian. As far as I'm concerned you're part of the problem.
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Old 07-28-2011, 07:36 PM   #1431
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Quote:
Does it matter, where I am?
My friend, you're the one who first brought up location when you said,
Quote:
"you do not live in India in the present tense".
And most likely, neither do you!

Me:
Quote:
So everyone who was born in India but ends up somewhere else is a "materialist"? Wow.
You:
Quote:
Did I say everyone? I was referring to you. Did you leave for altruistic reasons then? In which case, I stand corrected.
My mother left India when I was a very small child. She did not leave because she wanted to "save the world" or "spread the glorious Hindu Dharma" in mleccha desh like a Female Vivekananda or anything noble and altruistic like that.

She left because of extremely sad personal circumstances which I will respect her privacy by not going into detail about with hostile strangers on the internet here. Suffice it to say that while she may not be as altruistic as you are, she is certainly not a "materialist" either.

Quote:
"Now you're backtracking. Your initial stance was that women in India have it really really bad."
In my opinion and from my personal experiences over the years, many of them do. I have not and will not backtrack on that, ever.


You:
Quote:
all Indian women do not have hellish lives.
Me:
Quote:
I never said "all".
You:
Quote:
But you implied it.
Me:
Quote:
So everyone who was born in India but ends up somewhere else is a "materialist"? Wow
You:
Quote:
Did I say everyone?
Ahhh, but you implied it! ...

See how easy that was Twilight? You and I can go back and forth on this forever and not get anywhere.

Forgive me but my life is just too busy to go tit 4 tat with strangers on the internet over things like personanl opinions.

Quote:
THEN you would have no problem with Yoga being Hindu or proclaiming yourself Hindu.
LOL. Now you've gone mad. I am Hindu. Yoga is Hindu. Everybody knows that. Happy now?

Quote:
"You're ashamed of your country is what you are."
I'm a US citizen. In your personal opinion should I be ashamed of that or not?

Quote:
"You're ashamed of being an (erstwhile?) Indian."
Nope, I'm quite at peace with being an erstwhile Indian American, thankyou very much.

Quote:
As far as I'm concerned you're part of the problem.
OK!

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Old 07-28-2011, 10:59 PM   #1432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GORI YOGINI View Post
My friend, you're the one who first brought up location when you said,

And most likely, neither do you!

Me:

You:

My mother left India when I was a very small child. She did not leave because she wanted to "save the world" or "spread the glorious Hindu Dharma" in mleccha desh like a Female Vivekananda or anything noble and altruistic like that.

She left because of extremely sad personal circumstances which I will respect her privacy by not going into detail about with hostile strangers on the internet here. Suffice it to say that while she may not be as altruistic as you are, she is certainly not a "materialist" either.



In my opinion and from my personal experiences over the years, many of them do. I have not and will not backtrack on that, ever.


You:

Me:

You:

Me:

You:

Ahhh, but you implied it! ...

See how easy that was Twilight? You and I can go back and forth on this forever and not get anywhere.

Forgive me but my life is just too busy to go tit 4 tat with strangers on the internet over things like personanl opinions.



LOL. Now you've gone mad. I am Hindu. Yoga is Hindu. Everybody knows that. Happy now?



I'm a US citizen. In your personal opinion should I be ashamed of that or not?



Nope, I'm quite at peace with being an erstwhile Indian American, thankyou very much.



OK!

Oh fish'n'chips! I did not imply anything. I would own my statements if I did so. I said very plainly that YOU (not the generic third person) left India, and are a materialist, and not necessarily in that order either. You also cherry picked the statements that you wished to argue with, not even touching the ones that I showed to be false or where I asked you to prove something.

India is home. I also travel to and live in other countries for work. I did not think this was relevant to the discussion at hand. I commented on your location because you've made some nasty remarks about India and my feeling on the matter was that you are on the outside looking in. And I was right.

- You don't live in India
- You have some personal family circumstance that you have extrapolated into a nationwide crisis
- It is part of your cliche arsenal to push the view that Indian women have virtually no rights compared to Western women
- You have a chip on your shoulder about being more civilized vis a vis Indians in general

I have no interest in exchanging banter with strangers over the net either nor am I a hostile person but your remarks are very distasteful and, dare I say it, uncivilized.

Well, I was under the impression that you are a former Indian. And you are. I do think you are embarassed of your Indian-ness (that old boulder on the shoulder) but clearly not your US-ness! Personally, I don't care if you are a passport holder of Timbuktoo, but you dismissed an entire country and civilization with the neatest of biased statements. I would love to see you try your cliched statement about driving a new car to a fancy mall, and thinking of it as P-R-O-G-R-E-S-S and going home to beat the d-i-l, on one of your compatriots and report back on the maelstrom that ensues. But you will never do that because you are a hypocrite.

But you think it's ok to say that about Indians. As if every one of a billion people share those proclivities and fit into the little verbiage straitjacket designed by you. Have you tried it on for size? It might fit.

Yes, many Indian women suffer, due to a combination of circumstances, misfortune, conditioning, lack of education or access to finances. So do women in the West FOR THE SAME REASONS. What I'm trying to explain to you, perhaps not very well, is that it happens everywhere to some degree, even in the US. I have empathy for any woman or man who suffers due to their circumstances or gender in any country.

You seem to have some kind of a love-hate relationship with your Indian roots going on. Perhaps it gives you your anti-Indian identity. Certainly it provides grist to your mill.

And now, I really do think I've wasted enough time here (all falling on deaf ears anyways) and need to get a move on to other more important things. As a materialistic Indian, I am duty-bound to grub for my daily bread!
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Old 07-29-2011, 12:41 AM   #1433
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Blah, blah, blah.... whateva!

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going home to beat the d-i-l,
We don't do joint families here, bhabhiji.

Alvida and good luck!

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Old 07-29-2011, 03:26 PM   #1434
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This is your fallback response in an exchange…
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Blah, blah, blah.... whateva!
Violence against women is a grave problem that exists worldwide. Your glibness about this being primarily an Indian problem is ominous. Here is your response –
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Originally Posted by GORI YOGINI View Post
We don't do joint families here, bhabhiji.
The implication being:
1.All joint families beat their women
2.All Indians live in joint families
Ergo, all Indian women get beat up (preferably daily!).

Anyone with half a brain cell would see what is wrong with that statement. Since you appear to have an LCD (Lowest Common Denominator) mindset, let me break down your cherished beliefs, thusly:
1.All Indians do not live in joint families
2.All joint families do not beat their women

You appear to have some half baked ideas about India and Indians. Of course you have every right to cling to them in the face of the truth. I just thought I’d set the record straight for the reading public.
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Old 07-29-2011, 09:48 PM   #1435
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"Yoga is not a religion and should not [affiliate] with any religion.-T.K.V. Desikachar

" Yoga is not a religion by itself." -B.K.S Iyengar

"without credos or congregations, it can't properly be regarded as a religion—unless we say that each yogi and yogini comprises a religion of one."-Yoga Journal

"Nevertheless, what is certain is that ancient Vedic culture, which lays claim to being the first written spiritual tradition in the world, is much older than the loosely formed religion, Hinduism, that sprang from it. The spiritual practice of Yoga was part of Vedic culture long before Hinduism".-Deepak Chopra
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Old 07-30-2011, 02:03 PM   #1436
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"Yoga is not a religion and should not [affiliate] with any religion.-T.K.V. Desikachar

" Yoga is not a religion by itself." -B.K.S Iyengar

"without credos or congregations, it can't properly be regarded as a religion—unless we say that each yogi and yogini comprises a religion of one."-Yoga Journal

"Nevertheless, what is certain is that ancient Vedic culture, which lays claim to being the first written spiritual tradition in the world, is much older than the loosely formed religion, Hinduism, that sprang from it. The spiritual practice of Yoga was part of Vedic culture long before Hinduism".-Deepak Chopra
These people all have commercial interest in yoga not being associated with a particular religion, so do many members on this board.
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Old 07-30-2011, 10:38 PM   #1437
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I think Deepak is right in calling it part of the vedic culture. There is no "hindu" word in any sutra, upanishad, veda, purana. I don't have a commercial interest either way. I use Hindu because its convenient and widespread. The whole world knows "hindu" but whole world does not know "vedic". So "hindu" it is. I'm not trying to educate people on the nuances. I'll leave that up to the swamis, sadhus, godmen and capitalists.
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Old 07-31-2011, 10:19 AM   #1438
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Anyone know who to credit for this?

Yoga is not a religion; it is a discipline without dogma. Therefore a person of any faith or fellowship can be considered a yogi.
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Old 08-09-2011, 12:28 AM   #1439
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Hi scales
You want to say that Hinduism is built on yoga and that is absolutely wrong, you know nothing about hinduism. Yoga is just a part of hinduism. There is nothing wrong to say that Yoga evolved from Hinduism. I am not saying that Yoga is property of hindus only but according to me you can atleast give respect to religion from which Yoga has been evolved.
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Old 10-01-2011, 09:31 PM   #1440
IsmailaGodHasHeard
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 19
Yoga is whatever religion you want it to be.
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