Vivekananda explains the idea of renunciation as follows

Creativity Poetry & Quotes
#21

Nothing to do with imagination. I have read history of India from 10,000 years ago to present, so I know it generally quite well. It has always been a very wealthy country with massive industry. The west are new kids on the block. Even from the years 1AD to 10AD, which was the height of Western power with the Roman empire, India’s economy far outstripped the West, with a 32.9% share of the worlds gdp. The highest share a country/region has ever had in known history.

A philosopher once pointed out that if you look at 500 years of history it is very clear the West are the top of civilisation, but if you look at the 5000 year story, it is India and China which are at the top of civilisation, with the West nowhere to be seen. In any case, this discussion is a bit of side-track in this thread. Lets focus on the reunication topic.

#22

Could you mention your sources ? I have never read nor heard anything like that. Traditionally teachings such as Patanjali Yoga were mainly taught in gurukula during the brahmacarya period, they were made to be meditated upon all life long including during the grihasta period. Ascetic yogic sadhanas are mainly found in some tantric lineages such as the Nath tradition and texts such as Hatha Yoga Pradipika. Moreover there is no need to indulge into such useless sophisms with me, spare your time and mine, please. What you write about Patanjali not tolerating and laughing out load is ridiculous. I have already shown that it has been accepted since time immemorial that one can be a dedicated yogi and a householder, there is no need to repeat it again and again.

Philippe

#23

Surya deva: yoga is a solution for any man ready to take the express way back to hes maker.any man that practice yoga is already a yogi .hahahaha but to atain the yogi states all start in dhyana however any man that try to achieve ekagra is trying to yug to hold.tapas is the same crap it all end with the union of subject and object but you see not any union will give you liberation and thats the yoga target overall.(you could create a legitimate union between you and beer)(or between your hand and porno)(or between your bad habits of come here to try to impress people and the compliments you get from the lost souls that does not know shit about yoga)So I already said to stop fighting with words like litle girls and start training like real man.theory dont make you better than a monkey and more shit you talk more easy is to spot your wanker nature.Any body by the way in San Diego California? that knows any serious practitioner of raja and tantric yoga ? please guys let me know.

#24

I have not really indulged in useless sophisms, I have simply made my point very vividly clear by citing from the YS that Patanjali means by practice. Surely enough, it very explicitly says that practice has to be intense, unbroken, zealous, single-minded, uninterrupted. There is no ambiguity here in what Patanjali is saying.

Therefore Yoga is not just a hobby or exercise discipline that householders can do on the side, it a total way of life and religion that one is initiated into and then practices for the purpose of salvation . You should not act surprised, because if you are aware of the history of Yoga, Yoga has always been an initiation tradition. It was not something that householders did.

You are finding this difficult to accept, I can sense that. As a 21st century Westerner living a resposible worldly life, to be told you are not a yogi and are not practicing real yoga is a difficult pill for the ego to swallow. But I am just a messenger, so please don’t shoot the messenger. Even the masters you mention who were married did not live a worldy life either.

Ramakrishna got married and he did not have any intercouse with his wife, he saw her as the goddess. After his marriage, he did not work either, he continued his spiritual practices zealously and lived like a monk. Guru Nanak, from a very young age refused to work and used to spend hours everyday absorbed in meditation or the company of saints. Then later when they married him, he too did not stay home, he wandered all over India preaching. Buddha completely renounced his family and wordly life to search for enlightenment tirelessly, and then when he got it, he did not become wordly, he wandered India preaching.

Yoga is a serious path for serious students of Yoga who are ready for the path. You first need to have a burning thrist for it to be allowed on it. Even Ramakrishna did not initiate any students who did not have that. One time when a student told him how much they want self-realization, Ramakrishna took him to a lake and then forcibly and suddenly thrust their head under the water and held him down untill he started to suffocate. At that moment he released him and exclaimed to the student, “Until you do not crave the Self as much as you craved that last bit of breath, you are not ready for this path”

This theme of readiness also applies to the ashrams of life that you mentioned. In the first phase of brahamacharya the student merely got an education, they were not initiated in Yoga. The period where Yoga initiation began was in the sanyasa period and this was only after the householder period had ended so you were ready for it. There was also a choice to enter into the sanyasa period at any point in your life, but to so do meant rejecting the householder period. If you were not ready for that, you would not do it.

You have to be ready for Yoga. Then Yoga becomes your entire life - again, Yoga was not created for the 21st century Westerner consumerist.

#25

Little friend you need more info you want for those saints what you want for you.(total inactivity )But let me tell you something Ramakrishna was a tantrika before been anything else and do you know who initiate him? hahhaha exactly a woman.Do you know how they do it? go ask a tantrika woman she will tell you become a warrior and a real man first.Number two B K S Iyengar is been a house holder till the wife die years ago plus he didn’t renounced like a sanyansi and hes been a pretty good yogi as far as I know .Is way harder to abandon the world and and keep practicing that to renounce it and hide like a coward in the mountains.You are confuse and is ok because you are learning ,you can fix it as long as you dont take to many book words for the true the most important thing is to find the right sources and exercise your own brain.One more time you are confuse Karma yoga is yoga, bhakti yoga is yoga, tantra yoga is yoga so raja kundalini even karate is a way of modify yoga.Get it right all the ways take you to the father .Read karma yoga of swami vivekananda and stop wanking here in the forum trying to look smart.cause you are not get in it.Patanjalis way is only a way there is other many ways.By the way you can be a beggar and be more attached than a king to hes kingdome.Thats the true meaning of renouncing.By the way renouncing to what? if you have nothing.first be a man show to yourself what your capable of obtaining then renounce it.You want to renounce without having nothing to renounce ahhahahaha where is the glory?Another thing the story of the whater insertion is way older than Ramakrishna even Socrates the greek philosopher just to do that to hes disciples and Socrates came way before Ramakrishna.But that little parabola is even older than that.An old trick of initiation.

#26

The initiation rites of how Ramakrishna was initiated into his spiritual practice by his woman guru is just your speculation and nothing more. I am going to discard that as dubious until you can produce real evidence that supports your view.

The example you gave me of a karma yogi gives the entire game away. Swami Vivekananda was a sanyasi. He also had to renounce his family and household, and go off to the ashram of Ramakrishna and wander with him as a sanyasi.

Karma yoga is not the same as householder life. You never return to the householder stage even after you reach enlightenment. Buddha did not. Guru Nanak did not. Kabir did not. Swami Vivekananda did not. Swami Yogananda did not. Swami Ramakrishna did not.
Instead what they did do, was go out there into the world and preach, help with social transformation.

You see what I find ironic even the examples of people you are giving me of people who you purport to have done it another way, also had to go through the rites of passage of sanyasa. Indirectly, you are simply ratifying what I am saying that sanyasa is an absolute precondition to enlightenment. If you want to gain everything, you also need to lose eveything you have. An empty vessel can be filled, not a full one.

Like I said I am just the messenger and I carry the message of all enlightened masters, teacher, sages and saints. If you want enlightenment - you better be prepared to make some major sacrifices in your life. It is clear that you will never reach enlightenment in this lifetime because you are simply too greedy, lazy and complacent. That is the bottomline. Patanjali backs me up on that to the T.

#27

hahhahahahah.you are just a wanker.Missing the point! Yoga is about integrating buddy not escaping from the world .I live in america not in India.You are to cut up in mystical crap.Jesus Christ was a perfect Yoga and he came to live among the people not just go and hide in a mountain.rites dont mean shit all the work is done in the temple of your self.You dont know shit about tantra either.Thats why you cant put it together with the example of Ramakrishna.Renounsing doest not mean to destroy the bodies only to control the needs of it and by the way I gave you other example of a house holder that is a pretty good yogi but it seems that you dont know shit about him.Well go to my previews thread and get it cause I wont repeated lets see who is the lazy that dont even read properly before writing a respond .You dont know me but base on your pseudo mystical bala bla bla ( not to accurate knowledge) I can see that you are a professional wanker and a 24 years old kid.you are not a messenger you are just a parrot trained in read and spit the few things that your automatic brain can hold for few minutes.

Warned for personal attacks per the forum rules by David at 2:08pm Central on 11/16/10

#28

Personal attacks and foul language reported. There will be no further discussion between you and I. Good luck in your journey :slight_smile:

#29

[quote=Surya Deva;42730]
You are finding this difficult to accept, I can sense that. As a 21st century Westerner living a resposible worldly life, to be told you are not a yogi and are not practicing real yoga is a difficult pill for the ego to swallow. But I am just a messenger, so please don’t shoot the messenger. [/quote]

Suryadeva, I am not in need to be recognized as a yogi by the others. I can even been looked down or considered a “second-citizen” in spirituality, a mleccha by an orthodox southern Brahmin, lost in samsara for a die-hard theravadin, hellbound for an evangelical, deluded for a fan of Dawkins or whatever, I could even have a good laugh at times. Usually I say that I practise Yoga, I use the words sadhak or Yoga practitioner and hardly yogi as it often implies mastery of Yoga, something which can sound a bit presumptuous. I talk very little about my spiritual life in the daily life, I am very cautious with that.

That being said, I think that I know enough about Yoga (practically and also even if there is no special merit also intellectually, I have read hundreds of books about Yoga and Hinduism, it happens that I am often curious) and India, my wife - whom I met surprisingly in India when I was residing in some ashram - is Indian, I have been there multiple times. So I would say that I know a bit about what I am talking on the subject, this is not a fancy of the “average” Westerner you seem to portray. As I have said, I am entitled to my opinion, an opinion shared by many people including Indians. Moreover my spiritual path is aligned with the teachings from Sri Aurobindo and Mother something quite heterodox and different from Patanjali Yoga. A path for instance which has nothing to do with sex though the sex energy is used, that being said I would not enter the details of my private sexual life. They are my main references. I have been interested in Classical Yoga more as an adjuvant, for the pedigree it is in the Krishnamacharya’s (Krishnamacharya was the descendant of Sri Nathamuni, a Vaishnava saint, famous yogi and householder who was living in South India during the 10 the century) tradition that I am learning since years mainly with my mentor Bernard Bouanchaud, student of TKV Desikachar, student himself of Krishnamacharya, student of Rammohan Brahmacari. It happens that all of them fall in the category of “householders”. Basically for me all life is Yoga 24h/24h, 7/7 days, in the traffic jam in Delhi, in the metro during strikes in Paris, when I am teaching in the classroom, listening to music, writing poetry aso… and not just the number of hours spent on a mat. Understand it who may.

Philippe

P.S. : More on Sri Aurobindo. One can disagree, I would not mind, I am not here to prove anything about that nor for any propaganda.
http://www.miraura.org/teaching.html
http://www.sriaurobindoashram.org/ashram/sriauro/writings.php

#30

Personal attacks ? what type of yogi are you that react so easy to a litle spank in the butt? hahahahahah you just need to be more humble kid the sky is the limit .By the way your comments hold always some true but so the other people coments to.In reality is true that renunciation is part of the way but to integrate not to scape.can you get that concept? Remember that you have a body and is your vehicle of expression.

#31

Philippe I felt the nececity to back up your comments cause this surya deva litle kid is out of control.He is the example of the fanatic point of view.By the way is really important to know your stuff is just like I said before you need to be doing your practical work as well.Feel free to drop me a message Im allways learning even from the ants…

#32

Well I invite you to keep a civil tone and avoid ad hominem attacks, else I am afraid that I would have to use the ignore list button.

Philippe

#33

I think it is just better we not discuss Teitan, until you can write more like an adult. Meaning not use personal attacks and foul language(this is stipulated in the terms and conditions of the forum) I respect difference of opinion and views, I do not respect immaturity. I have told you once, I will not tell you again. You have repeatedly called me a “wanker”, told me my views are “shit” and this behaviour is not tolerated on this forum.

P.S. Phillipe, please do not let our difference of opinion cloud your objectivity. The member Teitan, ever since hes joined this forum, has been using obscene insults against me. I have kept a relatively civil tone in discussing with this member.

#34

You guys are so funny responsible wordly life? haahhaaa what the f is that? Man who cares what type of life? Everybody is Human here everybody is looking for the same even when they dont know what is it.Thats why we got yoga and whoever is ready is probably in hes way and asking about it not to say seating in asana.Get cut up in seudo mistisism and words and lineages are the mark of the poser.Is like confusing the map for the territory.Go to work!

#35

Kid Im older than you and more talented to.(older in reincarnating)take a brake you want me to give you bibliography gest what become more humble.You are very disrespectfull.I been spoting your errors .you can call my way whatever you want .Im a profesional warrior one of the few that fight and kill people for your country when you are wanking at your seudo misticism.So yes I can renounce to violence cause I been There .what about you?You are training to become a bunny.dont forget that Arjuna was a warrior .And warriors will tell you like it is .so dont call my words inmaturity call them to hard for you.

#36

It does no matter how many creditials you have is about you. what matters.credentials dont make you better than a monkey.Is the tpical tell me how I look and not who Im .Is easy for me to read and see what you really know.lol

#37

Dear Phillipe,

I am not calling you a mleccha, condemned or anything. There maybe some people who hold these views, but I am not one of them. I recognise you as you speak, and you are to me a wordly person living a responsible wordly life. You are a good person, somebody I would likely keep as a friend.

I do not recognise you as a yogi though. I am sorry, but you are not on the path of yoga. You will be, most certainly one day, but I don’t think it is going to be in this lifetime. Best of luck on your spiritual journey anyway. I only have good will for people, I do not wish bad on anybody.

The truth is very clear, though you are not accepting it, Yoga was not created for the 21st century Western consumer. It was created for people very serious about enlightenment and who wanted nothing else but enlightenment. Those still following that path today will get enlightenment, and those who don’t, will not. That’s how the universe works. No pain, no gain.

It is interestnig how everybody will agree that hard work is required to gain anything in life. If you want a toned, healthy and strong body, you work very hard in the gym going 3-5 times a week, count your calories and lead a lifestyle based around your goal. One who puts in this effort reaches their goal.

If you want a top class degree, you work very hard doing reading and studying everyday for hours, making sure your mind is in tip top condition by eating a balanced diet and leading a certain lifestyle. One who puts in this effort reaches their goal.

But when it comes to those desirous of enlightenment/self-god realization, people want double standards. They don’t want to work as hard, they make excuses that whatever they are doing is sufficient and convince themselves with those excuses. A bit of prayer now and again, attending church/temple/mosque now and again, giving to some charity now and again, helping in community projects now and again, and 1-2 hours of yoga asana and meditation or now and again. Will they reach their goal? Has anybody who has not put the dedicated hard effort in ever got their goal?

The answer is a resounding no they will not get anywhere near enlightenment/god realization. Those who did went through a lot of hard work, it did not come easy to them. Countless saints, masters and sages have graced our world and left their mark. Everybody had one thing in common - they worked their asses off to get where they did. Even Buddha, who was already a highly developed soul, still took 10 years of intense, single minded and dedicated practice.

In the next post I will explain why Patanjali’s Raja-Jnana Yoga is the best method to get enlightenment.

#38

Patanjali method is the best method for a fanatical yogi.Patanjali would be crying .at you Surya deva.Swamiji vivekananda to.hahahahaha

#39

Suryadeva, maybe not Kaivalya understood as complete viyoga. And it suits me well that way as I am not interested in escaping (nor in sainthood). I think that this world being a manifestation of Brahman has more sense than that. The denial of the ascetic is not an ideal I share. I am even ready to go to hell in the next life if the Divine “decides” that it is the best for me.

Philippe

#40

[QUOTE=Philippe*;42356] moreover I doubt that one can really be forever completly cut from Prakriti.

Philippe[/QUOTE]

Thats what I thought…just translation play…anyways, the idea is to distinguish, not to separate the two.