Is there life after death

Spirituality
#1

The doctor Elisabeth K?bler-Ross published her book ?Interviews with the Dying? in 1969. She stumbled upon the amazing fact that many people were able to encounter the other side during their brief deaths (before they returned to their bodies and to life).
During their lives on Earth, blind people can sometimes suddenly see from the other side. They can observe what happens on earth from the beyond. How could a blind person suddenly get knocked unconscious during the course of a car accident and then be able to see other people in the area of the accident and then describe the circumstances after being revived?
Especially well-known is the so-called dentures incident. An older man was taken to a hospital in the Netherlands to be operated. His dentures were taken out so that his throat could be more easily accessed. During the hustle and bustle of the operation, a nurse misplaced the dentures and couldn?t find them. Luckily, the man left his body during the operation and watched the nurse from above. Afer he returned to consciousness, the man was able to tell the nurse exactly where she had put his dentures.

The biggest scientific breakthrough occurred in 1991. The 35 year-old Pam Reynolds underwent a brain operation. She was placed in a state of artifical coma. Her eyes were closed and her ears were stoppered. And then Pam Reynolds had her out of body experience. She floated with her soul out of her body. She observed from above all of the details of her operation. Later on she floated through a tunnel to a world of light. There, she met her dead grandmother and other people. The beings there lived in a paradise dimension. In a BBC interview, Pam Reynolds explained that she had experienced the breath of God.

This famous near-death experience claim is considered by many to be proof of the reality of the survival of consciousness after death, and of a life after death. The following time line is based on the book Light & Death from Michael Sabom.
7:15 Reynolds is brought into the operating room, still awake. Reynolds receives thiopental for general anesthesia. Reynolds’ body is lifted onto the operating table. Her eyes are taped shut. Small, moulded speakers are inserted into her ears. A thermistor is placed deeply into her esophagus to measure core body temperature. EEG electrodes are taped to the head to record cerebral cortical brain activity.
8:40 Reynolds’ entire body, except for her head and groin, is blanketed with sterile drapes. Spetzler begins the surgery by opening the scalp and then carving out a section of the skull with a Midas Rex bone saw. Reynolds’ NDE begins. She hears a natural D. It feels like the sound pulls her out of her body. She looks down and sees several things in the operating room. She feels very aware and her vision is more focused and clearer than normal. She notices that her head is shaved in another way than she expected. She sees the ‘saw thing’ (bone saw). It looks like an electric toothbrush, has a dent or groove at the top where the saw connects to the handle and it has interchangeable blades which are placed in what looks like a socket wrench case. She hears the saw crank up.

She heard a female voice say, “We have a problem. Her arteries are too small.” It is later confirmed that the doctors first tried to connect the heart-lung machine to the right leg. But the arteries were so small that they switched to the left leg.

The attending physician, Dr. Spetzler does not believe that Pam could know the facts from a previous observation: ?There were the devices for her just not visible. The drills and the other things were covered or wrapped. They will not be discovered or unpacked, before the patient is not fully asleep. This is necessary to keep the area sterile.? ?In this phase of the operation, no one can see or hear something. It is inconceivable that in this phase senses like hearing do work. Apart from that, we put earphones for the click test in her ears. There was no way for her to hear the talks.?

The main argument of the atheists is that Pam should have been awake during the operation. This argument is very questionable. With a heavy brain surgery one can not awake and can not follow the conversations in the room and watch the proceedings. Especially when the blood is pumped out largely from the brain, the ears stoppered and the eyes are connected, and a cessation of brain waves is measured. There are many cases of near-death experience and all to explaine by a wake at the operation is very questionable. Waking up in the anesthesia is 1.3 from 1000 people. Near-death experiences have about 30% of the people. So the near-death experiences usually can not be explained by an awakening during the operation.

Woerlee: Sometimes the concentration of the anesthetics for a narcotic effect is not enough. These people stay awake: they hear what?s going on in their environment, they feel the work of surgeons and other persons and see what happens when their eyes are open.
Nils: A wake up under anesthesia comes at 1.3 from 1000 people. Near-death experiences have about 30% of the people. So the near-death experiences usually can not be explained by an awakening during the operation. ?If their eyes are open.? Pam Reynolds eyes were closed.
Woerlee: The screech of the saw woke Pam Reynolds.
Nils: The saw does not have the volume of a chainsaw, but the buzz of an electric toothbrush. In a deep anesthesia one does not awake from this.
Woerlee: She could hear people talking to each other.
Nils: The ears were stoppered. It is very unlikely that she could follow the operation talks.
Woerlee: The high-frequency sound of the pneumatic saw, together with the subsequent feeling that her skull was sawed open, called in her memories the image of a device that looked like a dentist drill.
Nils: You use the term ?safe? when you think highly speculative. You try to convince the reader your view of things. Pam Reynolds said, however, that she had expected a kind of saw. And she described previously completely unknown details: ?I had assumed that they would open the skull with a saw. I had heard the term saw, but what I then saw reminded me more of a drill. There were also several small drills in a box that looked like the tool box of my father when I was a child.?

On closer inspection, the arguments of Woerlee dissolve. The experts largely agree that there is no natural explanation. At the moment, the most speaks for the duality of the brain and soul.
See also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds_case
http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Afterlife
Video Is there life after death

#2

A phenomenon that we cannot easily put our arms around, almost always splits the audience into believers and non-believers. Very rarely we place under the microscope the process by which both reach their positions.

First, in any human cognition mind plays a major role. It helps us cognize but colors and conditions the outcome letting us never know anything without reference to what we know already. So, the unknown, uncommon, unfathomable is brought into the constraints of the known and evaluated. So, the tools of evaluation remain hopelessly deficient.

Life after death is one such phenomenon, that has irony built into its name. Unwittingly, what one looks for is a ‘life’ that we live after it supposedly ends. Hearing when one is not expected is seen as an evidence of ‘life’ without any regards to the subtle component of our everyday hearing. It is then easy to overlook a possibility that someone can continue with the subtle hearing when the gross is impaired.

The Vedanta model tells us that our subtle (astral) self backs up the gross (physical) when we are alive and living physically. Death is an occurrence when our subtle selves abandon the physical (like the physical body undressing!!) and then it is hardly any surprise that the astral self continues to live on. Unfortunately we don’t have a scientific jargon as yet for such a phenomenon.

Common to all out-of-body or near-death experiences is unprecedented joy. Why only the living dread the death while the dead don’t even remember it? The dead have no mischievous mind at work, while the living are infested with it and not even aware that they are. Even if they do, their attempt is to hold a 12" scale at a distance from Mt Everest and declare their scientific discovery that the peak is hardly 11.56756 inches above the ground!

#3

No …there is no life after death , but there is death after life we still coassist in our etheric form.:smiley:

Nothing to be afraid off , just different saroundings old family members to meet.

#4

Can that which was never born ever die; perhaps a more pertinent question realized is does the mind appear in the body or vice versa; tracing backwards the body is dependent on the mind, mind is dependent on consciousness and this consciousness is simply awareness reflecting minds matter. Examine this arising consciousness, the Maya (grand illusion) it perceives, all which is sparked into play by a sense of existence/being-ness, notice when consciousness subsides (sleep/swoon) the perceived world subsides and how awareness is aware of consciousness but not aware of itself, this awareness has no birth/death rather it is limitless, timeless, space-less, eternal, absolute. If one insists on identifying themselves as the body it sure seems when it falls the mind will fall, consciousness will fall along with all its memories.

#5

The real question is would the one doing the perceiving and experiencing and expressing even know the difference?

This identity writing once experienced and expressed through the body of an infant then a toddler then a child all of which have long since died as has the teenager and young man and the young adult this one writing once experienced through.

They are all dead and proof of that is they can not be called here to stand before anyone, by any power of authority in any court in any land right here and right now.

All of those bodies are dead.

Or do they only seem to have all been consumed by the march of the moment in the ever present now and no longer exist?

Yet they do, in time only, within the moments they belong to.

I submit that which is the animating principal is that which experiences through all those bodies which are irrevocably anchored in the time stream.

Including this one right here right now.

Yet that which perceives experiences and expresses is not part of the time stream. Yet there are laws not understood that govern it’s participation and presence.

I further submit that the reason this Jiva for lack of a better term can not in an instant go and inhabit the youthful aspect nor the elder aspect is because another is doing so already.

In simplest terms this existence is only a rental of the shortest lease duration imaginable "The Moment’’.

These very lives thoughts emotions etc have nothing to do with what we really are and as such nothing can rightly be taken personally nor can anything shared be considered personal.

Or perhaps it is that animating principal that is stationary and all moves through it.

Either way the end result is the same. Just a matter of perspective.

Either way from this I am given to understand that everything is already done, and it simply a matter or linear experiential awareness that is the factor to be considered and therefore a difference that makes no difference until a different mode of experiencing and expression is had.

The experience of experiencing through this body and expressing through this body in this time has already passed and if you are reading these words then be certain the one expressing them and experiencing the mind which could entertain such thoughts has already moved on also.

So perhaps it is just easier to say this body will die as well in fact it is doing it moment by moment just like all the others since the day it was born of woman.

One may rightly say that life itself does not exist in that it only exists in contrast with death and visa ~ versa, which leads to the inescapable conclusion that both are something other than what they appear and very likely two facets of a coin.

I like to call that coin linear existence.

Many speak of the astral realm and others but the question is would the one perceiving it really know? would they not just call that or any other realm they find themselves in life? would they likely be anymore aware than the majority are now?

Heres to existence. A difference that makes no difference save for in the mind of those that the thought of life after death may be entertained.

#6

I am that I am, the world is, the seeker is the sought, just be.

#8

There is nothing that can be uttered about this subject that is beyond pure ignorance; Until the body/mind/consciousness permanently subsides there is no direct experience and after it occurs it will no longer matter, the attempt at pointing this subject is towards the infinite absolute (beyond the finite mind), consider what you were before consciousness came into play?it has not changed and never will, it?s this arising in consciousness with all its Maya that needs to be examined, moving beyond the sense of being-ness/existence/I-AM-NESS is the portal to satisfy this question, no one will ever answer or lead you there but yourself.

?Wisdom tells me I am nothing. Love tells me I am everything. And between the two my life flows.?~Nisargadatta Maharaj

#10

Until the body/mind/consciousness permanently subsides there is no direct experience and after it occurs it will no longer matter …

Agreeably, the whole subject is beyond words; but when we must, using them with commonly shared meaning may help. I am sure you are not saying “body/mind/ consciousness” permanently subsiding, since these three are characteristically different. While body’s ‘awareness’ has to subside awareness itself is a colored version of consciousness, as mind is dwarfed Universal Mind. Secondly awareness results from attention that is sustained by mind, the energy.

So, perhaps the correct expression could be when ‘body awareness completely subsides, as the mind is consciously withdrawn from it and awareness expands into pure consciousness’. I am sure this is what you mean.

Ray, another issue is of location. It is true that simply “being (consciousness)” is a location of ‘nothingness’ and anything else is a deceptive and defective location. But the location and its awareness are both dynamic entities and its product “I-ness” a moving target. The journey is from one I-ness to the other until it dissolves along with its causes. Awareness thus causes duality, while consciousness is non-dual.

#11

Individuality is a consequence of the ego identifying with the physical body. The superstitious concept of ‘you’ that you find comfort in does not even exist. Since you do not exist, you cannot die. That is the only immortality. All others are fear-based hopes and dreams of a desperate species. It’s a sad thing really that people try to mix the reality of yoga with the fiction of religions and beliefs.

All of the experiences you mentioned are experienced through different chemicals in brain and nervous system. I find it amusing that people are often under anesthesia/drugs and still think their perceptions and dreams are real. There is an explanation for every one of those testimonies.

#12

[QUOTE=omshanti;83399]Individuality is a consequence of the ego identifying with the physical body. The superstitious concept of ‘you’ that you find comfort in does not even exist. Since you do not exist, you cannot die. That is the only immortality. All others are fear-based hopes and dreams of a desperate species. It’s a sad thing really that people try to mix the reality of yoga with the fiction of religions and beliefs.

All of the experiences you mentioned are experienced through different chemicals in brain and nervous system. I find it amusing that people are often under anesthesia/drugs and still think their perceptions and dreams are real. There is an explanation for every one of those testimonies.[/QUOTE]

That you can not explain what the reality of Yoga is and only write in a way that absolves you of having to explain anything.

Whatever one perceives as real, is, that does not necessarily make it real to anyone else nor does it make it the ultimate reality whatever that may be.

I have had many experiences shared them with many risked looking foolish self aggrandizing and pompous like an ass and have been and still am all of these things as well as loving, kind, giving and compassionate. Ultimately all of my experiences are just that mine, and real only to me but they are also universal, the proof of that is so many report similar experiences through out the ages.

In my experience Atheists are only people who have not yet encountered God and are pissed over it. One good experience of God and it is all better.

Of coarse it is all in the brain and the nervous system this is where awareness is lodged in these animal bodies.

So the reply to that is big deal so what? Just because a vehicle and its operation are describable does not make it paltry and unworthy of respect and unreal. Indeed that these bodies function at all is incredible.

If you inhabit a body of energy then it would be just whatever passes for that bodies ability to contain awareness perceive and communicate.

You have to start somewhere but then again since none of this is real according to you then why bother posting in the first place? Just saying.

To say all of this is not real while you are here is the only unreality.

One day when you can demonstrate you can exist independent of this world and the body you used to type letters over the internet or that you do not in the first place exist then you can you can rightly say none of this is real until then it is just your belief.

So if you want to make big statement be ready to back them up and explain them I am certain I like many others would love to understand more. So far though I have not seen you do that. You have the floor please do educate us.

#13

[QUOTE=Suhas Tambe;83303]So, perhaps the correct expression could be when ‘body awareness completely subsides, as the mind is consciously withdrawn from it and awareness expands into pure consciousness’. I am sure this is what you mean.[/QUOTE]

It is extremely difficult to communicate religions, philosophies, yoga?s, spiritually and Truths without commonly shared terminology, although I find knowledge from everyone and everything I?m exposed to whether it a Truth/untruth. For me body/mind/consciousness are arising?s in human apparatus?s, what I?m referring to as ?pure awareness? is that which cannot be described by words; the infinite backdrop of stillness, silence, timeless, spaceless, formless, attribute-less, unchanging eternal Self. This awareness (witness) is aware of human consciousness but cannot be aware of its self; upon investigation one may begin to recognize the common misidentification of being consciousness vs. awareness. Human consciousness is an illusionary arising in dualistic perception created when awareness reflects minds matter sparking being-ness/existence/I-AM-NESS into play. Human consciousness is a constant state of change (unreal/illusion) the only constant in consciousness is the sense of I-AM-NESS i.e. I AM born, I AM living, I AM dying where the born, living and dying change but I AM remains unchangeable. It?s impossible for a finite human mind to speak Truths (describe the infinite Absolute) rather I?m attempting to identify the untruths, that which changes, like notions in human consciousness.

#14

[QUOTE=Seeking;83415]That you can not explain what the reality of Yoga is and only write in a way that absolves you of having to explain anything. [/QUOTE]

Sir, the implication of my statement is that yoga is a series of practices that produce a real, physical change. In contrast, no amount of thinking will ever produce an equal physical transformation [into health]. Furthermore, the direct experiences the yogi has, via meditation/trance or kriyas, produce a mind clear of beliefs - no belief in god, creed or greed. No samkhya, no vedanta, no god, no demons etc. etc. - Pure nothingness/peace.

[QUOTE=Seeking;83415]
Whatever one perceives as real, is, that does not necessarily make it real to anyone else nor does it make it the ultimate reality whatever that may be.[/QUOTE]

That is true in the field of thought, but in the physical world there is indeed a definitive reality.

[QUOTE=Seeking;83415]
I have had many experiences shared them with many risked looking foolish self aggrandizing and pompous like an ass and have been and still am all of these things as well as loving, kind, giving and compassionate. Ultimately all of my experiences are just that mine, and real only to me but they are also universal, the proof of that is so many report similar experiences through out the ages.[/QUOTE]

I mean, sure, if you are happy with that then go with it. Yoga is for mental stillness and pure observation. You are of course free to do whatever you want. I don’t quite understand your point.

[QUOTE=Seeking;83415]
In my experience Atheists are only people who have not yet encountered God and are pissed over it. One good experience of God and it is all better.

Of coarse it is all in the brain and the nervous system this is where awareness is lodged in these animal bodies.

So the reply to that is big deal so what? Just because a vehicle and its operation are describable does not make it paltry and unworthy of respect and unreal. Indeed that these bodies function at all is incredible.[/QUOTE]

The word “God” is very bizarre and implies various archaic beliefs. I am not denying the reality of Ishvara, and the various miracles that happen within that awareness. The yoga sutras will clarify my perception of this - which is what all of this madness [of cults and technique] has been inspired by - yoga. Yoga has been mixed into a hundred different cults, religions, organizations, belief systems etc. Go to the source material - yoga sutras - no affiliations. No lies or myths regarding this or that.

[QUOTE=Seeking;83415]
If you inhabit a body of energy then it would be just whatever passes for that bodies ability to contain awareness perceive and communicate.

You have to start somewhere but then again since none of this is real according to you then why bother posting in the first place? Just saying.[/QUOTE]

Sir, I am truly sorry if I have offended you, it was not my intention. I agree with you, everyone needs a starting point, so let that starting point be pure-yoga and nothing else! No swamis, no demigods, no gurus, no priests, no presidents, no managers, no assistant managers… etc. etc.

[QUOTE=Seeking;83415]
To say all of this is not real while you are here is the only unreality.

One day when you can demonstrate you can exist independent of this world and the body you used to type letters over the internet or that you do not in the first place exist then you can you can rightly say none of this is real until then it is just your belief. [/QUOTE]

I can easily do so right now, today, this moment. It can only be done in-person. It cannot be fully expressed over a medium like the internet or books. If you are so angry with me, why not come and visit me? I will happily be with you.

[QUOTE=Seeking;83415]
So if you want to make big statement be ready to back them up and explain them I am certain I like many others would love to understand more. So far though I have not seen you do that. You have the floor please do educate us.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I am ready to back it up, are you ready? Here it is: go study the yoga sutras, it contains every thing. I do not see why I would be inspired to write about this timeless perception when that already exists. [Unlike the fallacy of ‘you’ - which does not exist]

#15

?Everyone has to die; so die as your true nature. Why die as a body? Never forget your true nature. It may not be acceptable to many, but it is a fact… this body has nothing to do with you. If you must have an ambition have the highest, so that at least while dying, you will be the Absolute. Decide that now firmly, with certainty and conviction. Giving up the body is a great festival. Death is generally considered to be a traumatic experience, but understand what happens. That which has been born, the knowledge ‘I am’ which is the same everywhere, but which has gotten itself limited by the body, again becomes unlimited. A speck of consciousness is given up. Why the fear? How has this fear of death crept in? That which cannot die somehow became convinced that it was going to die. It is based on the concept that one is an individual who is born… all the fear arises from mere words told to you by someone. This is the bondage. It is like someone gives you a drink and then tells you, "I have put poison in that drink, and in six months you will die.? Immediately you become very frightened because you think that you will die. But then you meet a friend and he tells you not to worry. He says, "Here, drink this and there will be no death for you. First there is one concept which fills you full of fright, and then there is another concept which negates the first concept. Like this you get involved with the flow of maya and there are concepts, ideas, creations… pain alternates with pleasure… but all of it is just ignorance and misery. It is only when you search for your Self that you become aware that it is all a fraud. Be still in your beingness. Then even it will disappear and you will merge in Truth. All that needs to be done is to find out your real source and take up headquarters there. From the Absolute standpoint, your beingness is only ignorance. Nothing comes and nothing goes; it is a mirage. All there is is the Absolute, all there is is the Truth. The witness of the consciousness never comes into the realm of the consciousness. When you pursue this spiritual path of understanding the Self, all your desires just drop off… even the primary desire… to be. When you stay put in the beingness for some time, that drops off. Then you are in the Absolute… there is no movement for you. You are minding the show. Consciousness extinguishes itself, knowingness disappears, and you, the Absolute remains. That is the moment of death. When this life force leaves the body, it will not seek permission from anything. It came spontaneously and will leave spontaneously. That is all that happens in what is called death. Death is the culmination of the experience ‘I am’. After the termination of the ‘I amness’ there is no experience of knowingness or not knowingness. What did you know prior to your birth? Similarly, after death this instrument is missing; without the body there is no experience. Eternity has no birth and no death, but a temporary state has a beginning and an end. Even when the consciousness goes, you prevail - you always are - as the Absolute. As the consciousness you are everything that comes into manifestation. Whatever is, is you. But, when you fully understand the knowledge ‘I am’ and all its manifestations, then you will understand that, in truth, you are not that. You are the unlimited, which is not susceptible to the senses. By limiting yourself to the body you have closed yourself to the unlimited potential which you really are. Treat the body like a visitor or a guest, which has come and which will go. You must know your position as a host very clearly while it is still here, and while it is here you must also know what your position will be after it leaves. In spirituality there is no question of doing… only observing and understanding. But, if you try to understand spirituality through various concepts, like birth and rebirth, you will get caught up in them in a vicious cycle. And once you are caught up in them you are bound to have them. Out of concepts the forms are created. Right now, think of that last moment when the body will go - at that time with what identity are you going to quit? When you become aware of your true nature, then at the end of your life you will not be prepared to give even one paisa to extend your life. You will have lost all love for this manifested world and you will not want even this consciousness for five minutes more. The vital breath leaves the body, the ‘I amness’ recedes and goes to the Absolute. That is the greatest moment, the moment of immortality. The ‘I amness’ was there, the movement was there, and now it is extinguished. Being alive is never as an individual, but simply being part of the spontaneous manifestation. Now that has subsided in death. The ignorant one will struggle and get frightened at the moment of death; most reluctantly he will give up the consciousness to a concept he has come to call time. But the jnani gives up the beingness to his own true nature; for him it is the happiest of moments.? ~Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

#16

[QUOTE=omshanti;83441]Sir, the implication of my statement is that yoga is a series of practices that produce a real, physical change. In contrast, no amount of thinking will ever produce an equal physical transformation [into health]. Furthermore, the direct experiences the yogi has, via meditation/trance or kriyas, produce a mind clear of beliefs - no belief in god, creed or greed. No samkhya, no vedanta, no god, no demons etc. etc. - Pure nothingness/peace.

S Reply: Thank you for making this clear

That is true in the field of thought, but in the physical world there is indeed a definitive reality.

S Reply: Oh sorry I though that was understood. :smiley: there is a joke in there somewhere.

I mean, sure, if you are happy with that then go with it. Yoga is for mental stillness and pure observation. You are of course free to do whatever you want. I don’t quite understand your point.

S Reply: Oops darn copy paste too many tabs open that was meant for the thread the member started concerning turning on his Kundalini.

The word “God” is very bizarre and implies various archaic beliefs. I am not denying the reality of Ishvara, and the various miracles that happen within that awareness. The yoga sutras will clarify my perception of this - which is what all of this madness [of cults and technique] has been inspired by - yoga. Yoga has been mixed into a hundred different cults, religions, organizations, belief systems etc. Go to the source material - yoga sutras - no affiliations. No lies or myths regarding this or that.

S Reply: The word God is neither archaic nor bizarre it is both contemporary and implies reality not silly belief systems.

One has to experience this for themselves though. God does not mean the belief of any religion. All religions are the property of God not the other way around.

The yoga sutras are a collection of thought written by man there source lies in experience and those who shared them.

The rest called madness is inevitable, and unavoidable madness is the mind turned outwards and the news is chock full of it daily. Madness does not and cannot exist when the mind is dissolved. You know that. Until then it is an imperfect tool at the best of times.

If you can believe in the experiences shared thousands of years ago and that they alone are valid then the experiences of those reporting today are equally valid. It is only belief that make one think otherwise.

Would that God were given as much credit reverence and consideration for having always been but these upstart written words are given more by you for being so young and modern a mere thousands of years.

It is safe to say we shall never agree on these topics.

Sir, I am truly sorry if I have offended you, it was not my intention. I agree with you, everyone needs a starting point, so let that starting point be pure-yoga and nothing else! No swamis, no demigods, no gurus, no priests, no presidents, no managers, no assistant managers… etc. etc.

S Reply: You have never really offended me on these boards what you have done was make me a little ticked off with the way you have called other people trippers and assumed false airs.

I suspect you have some good knowledge to share but do not because you yourself have been shot down in the past by unfriendly people and yes you did manage to finally get me to the point of letting you know about it. Have you ever thought that one of the reasons that I and others share what we do is in the hope of perhaps someone who knows more who has seen more experienced more already tread the ground we are trying to might actually see what is being written and be kind enough to offer constructive advice?

Probably not.

As far as what pure Yoga is I have no idea what that is.

I can easily do so right now, today, this moment. It can only be done in-person. It cannot be fully expressed over a medium like the internet or books. If you are so angry with me, why not come and visit me? I will happily be with you.

I am not angry with you at all, but I do wish you would be nicer when replying to people on these boards myself included. When people are sharing things that are eventful to them and trying to better understand what it all means as beginners, which I most certainly still am rude remarks do nothing but create unhappiness and disappointment in others.

As far as coming to visit you, there has been nothing yet to suggest doing so would be productive in any way.

Yes, I am ready to back it up, are you ready? Here it is: go study the yoga sutras, it contains every thing. I do not see why I would be inspired to write about this timeless perception when that already exists. [Unlike the fallacy of ‘you’ - which does not exist][/QUOTE]

S Replies ok you have got a deal please point me to a good version written in English and I will study it. Then we can both discuss it here with other great minds like SuryaDeva. this would make a good thread. Now are you ready to create a long running answer and reply session on this forum?

#17

That is the most I have ever seen you write. Thank you that post is so correct.

I was watching a YouTube video just last night and the person talking said the following thing repeating something he had read.

This is a story of a person talking to death itself. This person asked death, death what is life?

Death replied life is a sexually transmitted disease. There’s an awful lot of truth in that statement.

#18

As an individualization of the cosmos you really are, your subtle body will produce a new physical one for your illusion and bewilderment. Both individual self and death aren’t but an illusion.

#19

Many questioning what happens after one dies but few seem to be concerned with what was before birth.

#20

[QUOTE=ray_killeen;83522]Many questioning what happens after one dies but few seem to be concerned with what was before birth.[/QUOTE]

Thats because it is not acceptible to the mind to dwell on.

This comes from not remembering, yet in the deepest parts everyone does and knows it is ok, otherwise the whole planet would be neurotic health nuts doing whatever it takes to stay here.

Instead we see greedy grabbing for the most part to get as much and experience as much as possible in a short period of interlude inbetween called life.

We didn’t come here to stay.

In any event what was before is also after and the reason so few remember is that it is a state that words will fail to convey because it is that different. Look in a childs eyes when they are being still and you will see the same thing reflectedinthe old persons eyes the newly arrivedthe been here a while it s the same.

Some have said Kriya is the art of commiting suicde by will as many masters are recorded as doing just that, calling it Maha Samadhi.

In Kriya one dies daily during practice so it is like that, breath becomes still, heart does not beat, and this is life but not as most know it. In fact this common experience everyone calls life we are sharing even through the medium of internet and servers and software as well as our daily life walking the Earth etc…may actually be death from a different point of view.

#21

[QUOTE=Seeking;83449]
The word God is neither archaic nor bizarre it is both contemporary and implies reality not silly belief systems.

One has to experience this for themselves though. God does not mean the belief of any religion. All religions are the property of God not the other way around.

The yoga sutras are a collection of thought written by man there source lies in experience and those who shared them.
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[B][I]While it is true that the Yoga Sutras are a collection, or an amalgamation if you will, of the human experience; there is nothing even close to the concept of ?God? - for that is indeed a medieval fiction. There are mysteries, there are wonders, there is even sublime peace and understanding. But there is no ?God?.[/I][/B]

[QUOTE=Seeking;83449]
The rest called madness is inevitable, and unavoidable madness is the mind turned outwards and the news is chock full of it daily. Madness does not and cannot exist when the mind is dissolved. You know that. Until then it is an imperfect tool at the best of times.
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[B][I]This concept of ?madness? you perceive when watching the evening news is nothing more than a reaction to sensationalism and commerce. This analysis of your experience would lead me to question your psyche, as you frequently display behavioral characteristics similar to those of schizophrenia.[/I][/B]

[QUOTE=Seeking;83449]
If you can believe in the experiences shared thousands of years ago and that they alone are valid then the experiences of those reporting today are equally valid. It is only belief that make one think otherwise.
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[B][I]There is no ?believing? going on whatsoever. There is only theory and experimentation. Experience cannot and will never be quantified[/I][/B].

[QUOTE=Seeking;83449]
Would that God were given as much credit reverence and consideration for having always been but these upstart written words are given more by you for being so young and modern a mere thousands of years.
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[B][I]I request that you clarify this statement as I cannot understand it.[/I][/B]

[QUOTE=Seeking;83449]
It is safe to say we shall never agree on these topics.
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[B][I]Okay.[/I][/B]

[QUOTE=Seeking;83449]
You have never really offended me on these boards what you have done was make me a little ticked off with the way you have called other people trippers and assumed false airs.
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[B][I]Okay.[/I][/B]

[QUOTE=Seeking;83449]
Have you ever thought that one of the reasons that I and others share what we do is in the hope of perhaps someone who knows more who has seen more experienced more already tread the ground we are trying to might actually see what is being written and be kind enough to offer constructive advice?

Probably not.
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[B][I]Blind leading the blind.[/I][/B]

[QUOTE=Seeking;83449]
As far as what pure Yoga is I have no idea what that is.
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[B][I]Yoga-Sutras.[/I][/B]

[QUOTE=Seeking;83449]
I am not angry with you at all, but I do wish you would be nicer when replying to people on these boards myself included. When people are sharing things that are eventful to them and trying to better understand what it all means as beginners, which I most certainly still am rude remarks do nothing but create unhappiness and disappointment in others.
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[B][I]Not exactly, open criticism has always been the yogic way. There are hundreds of cults and religion all claiming knowledge and participation in ?yoga?. There are many myths, fallacies and lies regarding the yoga-systems popular in today?s social climate. Yoga is not religion, so if you are seeking religion go to a Church.[/I][/B]

[QUOTE=Seeking;83449]
ok you have got a deal please point me to a good version written in English and I will study it. Then we can both discuss it here with other great minds like SuryaDeva. this would make a good thread. Now are you ready to create a long running answer and reply session on this forum?
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[B][I]I believe there is a good translation available for download online, from a guy named Chip. There are a few good translations actually. Just don?t read any translation with unnecessary ?commentary? or ?explanation? added in by some idiot.[/I][/B]

#22

The evening news I am referring to that is chock full of madness is just that. Murder violence the rape of women etc… that is madness by anyones definition.

These are all examples of mankind with mind turned outwards from kutastha.

You are correct experinces can not be quantified, I have tried my best but fail each time.

Blind leading the blind is not quite correct that implies an absolute, sometimes all it takes a a word phrased in just such a way that an ah ha moment is had and a break through in understanding comes from it.

Thanks for the advice on the Yoga Sutras all the ones I have ever read have always been in commentary. A Good link would be appreciated.

I am curious have you gotten away from Kriya, it seemed like you were involved in it at one point but now only rely on the Yoga Sutras. If you have left Kriya behind it would be interesting to know why.

Thanks.