[QUOTE=YogiAdam;34305]?The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.? - Socrates[/QUOTE]
maybe that is why jesus said “humility is the key to the kingdom of God”
[QUOTE=Brother Neil;34310]maybe that is why jesus said “humility is the key to the kingdom of God”[/QUOTE]
Yes, I would agree that humility isn’t an optional quality you can do without. It’s part of the chain of wisdom. You can’t have compassion, patience, generosity, tolerance and all the qualities of a well developed human being, without humility. Without humility, your missing a link, and the whole system is flawed.
It is we clear we know many things. We know about chemistry, nuclear energy, electromagnetism, other solar systems, microbiology, computers, pi.
To claim we don’t know is disingenious.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34324]It is we clear we know many things. We know about chemistry, nuclear energy, electromagnetism, other solar systems, microbiology, computers, pi.
To claim we don’t know is disingenious.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, you’ve missed the point by about 100%. It’s not suggesting that we don’t know anything. Check out the early Greek philosophers. Socrates and Plato, and also the french philosopher Descartes. They really have a lot to offer. It will make sense to you, once you’ve got a grasp of their contributions.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34324]It is we clear we know many things. We know about chemistry, nuclear energy, electromagnetism, other solar systems, microbiology, computers, pi.
To claim we don’t know is disingenious.[/QUOTE]
While we know many things, our knowledge of those things is limited. Limited by the small % of our brain that we actually use, our perception, ego, technology etc. We can never say we absolutely know. Everything changes. Nothing remains the same. Therefore we can never fully know. Our knowledge is based on facts that we are given or are known at a particular moment.
[QUOTE]
?verb (used with object)
-
to perceive or understand as fact or truth; to apprehend clearly and with certainty: I know the situation fully.[QUOTE]
If this is your understanding of “know” then I go with my above statement.
[QUOTE]to be cognizant or aware of: I know it.[QUOTE]
I this is your definition, I would agree.
[QUOTE=YogiAdam;34328]Yeah, you’ve missed the point by about 100%. It’s not suggesting that we don’t know anything. Check out the early Greek philosophers. Socrates and Plato, and also the french philosopher Descartes. They really have a lot to offer. It will make sense to you, once you’ve got a grasp of their contributions.[/QUOTE]
My good boy, I had to study them in the first year of my degree. I have read their primary works 
You claimed that we we don’t know anything. Now you are claiming to do we know things. Good, then are agreeing with me then that we can know things and that our knowledge grows the more we know. Eventually will come a point where we will know everything.
That is what I am saying: I know everything about the nature of reality from start to finish.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34338]My good boy, I have to study them in the first year of my degree. I have read their primary works ;)[/QUOTE]
It’s a shame studying and learning don’t go hand in hand.
The eternal wisdom never changes. It was the same 10,000 years ago, 5000 years ago, 2000 years ago and the same today. This is why it is called the ageless wisdom.
The reason you do not want to accept that somebody can have complete knowledge is because it offends you that somebody claims to have a perfection in a certain area, when you clearly do not.
[QUOTE=Surya Deva;34341]The reason you do not want to accept that somebody can have complete knowledge is because it offends you that somebody claims to have a perfection in a certain area, when you clearly do not.[/QUOTE]
No one does.
Perfection is only an illusion.
[QUOTE=YogiAdam;34340]It’s a shame studying and learning don’t go hand in hand.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think you can be the judge of that. The judge of that were my tutors who awarded me with distinctions for all of my papers, and then finally the examining board that awarded me a degree with first class honours in this subject.
I told you before you cannot beat me on my own turf. I have more or less mastered this. My knowledge of Plato, Socrates, Descartes and other major philosophers you did not even mention because you probably never heard of them Hume, Kant, Wittgenstein, Sartre, Heidegger far outstrips your virtually non-existent knowledge.
Remember greatness is always one better than you
[QUOTE=lotusgirl;34343]Perfection is only an illusion.[/QUOTE]
The universe would not even exist if it wasn’t for imperfection. Stephen Hawking could tell you that… in his charming robotic voice.
Only weak people say there is no such thing as perfection, because they do not strive for greatness. This is the biggest difference between yogis and myself, and you.
[QUOTE=YogiAdam;34345]The universe would not even exist if it wasn’t for imperfection. Stephen Hawking could tell you that… in his charming robotic voice.[/QUOTE]
What a moronic thing to say. The universe would not exist if there was no perfection. Do you know even the slightest ratio at the subatomic level being offset by even a degree would mean that the entire universe would collapse like a house of cards.
The fact is clear there is a perfect order in this universe without which you, I and the whole universe would not be here.
Only ignorant people call this universe imperfect.
Surya Deva,
I notice you use the word, “weak” a lot. What is the difference between someone who is weak and someone who is strong? And how can someone who is weak, become strong?
Thanks 
[QUOTE=lotusgirl;34343]Perfection is only an illusion.[/QUOTE]
No No. I found perfection just then. Peace on earth is here Ahhahaha
Namaste David,
I will have to answer affirmatively will power and concentration power(which are pretty much the same things) it sorts out the wheat from the chaff. The strong believe in themselves and believe in their infinite potential and strive to realise it. The weak do not believe in themselves, limit their potentials and do not strive. Rather they complain and blame other people for their own inadequacies.
Sd- Please improve your vocabulary when responding to others. (‘moronic’ thing to say)
2 points:
- W/O imperfection there would be no movement or flow of energy. Probability “implies” imperfection. Absolute certainty is the death of probability. In the same light, absolute truth is the death of the Quest!
Stephen Hawking is a brilliant man and he does believe what YogiAdam attributed to him. Let’s see, believe a brilliant physicist or you, a philosopher? Hum…
[QUOTE]I will have to answer affirmatively will power and concentration power(which are pretty much the same things) it sorts out the wheat from the chaff. The strong believe in themselves and believe in their infinite potential and strive to realise it. The weak do not believe in themselves, limit their potentials and do not strive. Rather they complain and blame other people for their own inadequacies.[QUOTE]
- Regarding above statement. The line between weak and strong is not so black and white. The strong can have weak moments and the weak can have strong moments.
I ask you this Surya. If a person has suffered trauma such as abuse, PTSD or even the loss of a loved one and falls into depression, does it not show their strength when they seek help, whether it is through yoga, medication, therapy or what not? Yes it does. To deny getting the help you need can be considered a weakness. Some people can more quickly find the strength they need than others. I consider myself a strong woman. I have overcome much in my life and genuinely live a healthy happy life. When I fell into depression, if I were weak i would have stayed there. But I am not typically a depressed person and I knew there was a reason for it, so I got help. For someone to admit that, my friend, takes much strength. Now I am babbling and I don’t want to.
My opinion. Take it or leave it.
- W/O imperfection there would be no movement or flow of energy. Probability “implies” imperfection. Absolute certainty is the death of probability. In the same light, absolute truth is the death of the Quest!
There is what is called a dynamic equilibrium. This means, yes the universe does flow and does change, but it changes according to a perfect order. If that order was absent the whole universe would fall apart. In fact forget universe, look at the microcosm of the universe in your own body where every is connected to everything else and for you to even move an entire finger cooperation is required between every part and this all kept in a very fine balance. When the balance of the bodies regulating systems is offset that is when disease take place. There are three main regulating systems vata, pitta and kapha, the nervous system, the metabolic system and the muscular-skeletal systems, disease manifests.
Like I told you we Hindus know it all 
One would have to be blind not to acknowledge that the universe obeys natural principles. It is not random or chaotic. You would not be here if it was random and chaotic. It is governed by intelligent principles(devas) that are there in order to serve the evolution of life and the realization of its full potential.
Stephen Hawking is a brilliant man and he does believe what YogiAdam attributed to him. Let’s see, believe a brilliant physicist or you, a philosopher? Hum…
It is not a matter of belief but what is factual. Einstein is also a brilliant man, and more highly regarded then Stephen Hawking, and he believes that the universe is a perfect and elegant order.
- Regarding above statement. The line between weak and strong is not so black and white. The strong can have weak moments and the weak can have strong moments.
I ask you this Surya. If a person has suffered trauma such as abuse, PTSD or even the loss of a loved one and falls into depression, does it not show their strength when they seek help, whether it is through yoga, medication, therapy or what not? Yes it does. To deny getting the help you need can be considered a weakness. Some people can more quickly find the strength they need than others. I consider myself a strong woman. I have overcome much in my life and genuinely live a healthy happy life. When I fell into depression, if I were weak i would have stayed there. But I am not typically a depressed person and I knew there was a reason for it, so I got help. For someone to admit that, my friend, takes much strength. Now I am babbling and I don’t want to.
My opinion. Take it or leave it.
Having the will power to find help is definitely an indication of strength. Then continuing to strive in order to better yourself is an even stronger indication. In other words your strength is directly proportional to your will power.
A strong person can have weak moments but that is because they are not absolutely strong and still have a way to go. Somebody who is absolutely strong will have no weakness at all.
The more powerful your will power grows the more stronger you will become. The only way is up from there.
Hi Surya Deva,
[quote]Admit, that you have not figured out existence from start to finnish, that would be a start inspiring confidence. And above all: Know what the hell we are talking about!
I am obviously not going to do that because that is exactly what the point of contention is. Your agnostic and I am not. I am dead certain that idealism is the true nature of reality. I am prepared to defend this position to my deathbed, and I will argue it, until you refute my arguments, which you have not.[/quote]you adhere so strongly to your viewpoint, that you will do anything to “defend” it. To your “deathbed”! Your vocabulary already is violent, like this was a war and a fight and you were in the middle of a military campaign. You have something to loose. I don’t, I could only win something, which is wonderful and a “liberty” you know nothing about.
Your adherence to your viewpoints clouds your judgement, you are not at all open to have said viewpoint refuted, so you will elude anything that potentially can do that. I had to ask you to even notice my arguments. And now you still do not deal with them, but use rethorics to evade them. The monologue you provided about holograms and QM and Phenomena and Noumena serves only that purpose.
And that is the problem with language: You can evade anything till the end of time if you want to.
So this debate is pointless, a waste of my very valuable time. You fight for your position, like your life depended on it. And maybe it does, just like the lifes of religious people depend on their beliefs. If someone could prove to them their god does not exist, their lifes wouldn’t be the same anymore. The safety would be gone, the certainty. Real wars are fought over that. However, I have no intention to take your beliefs from you. Not even the one that you’re being scientific and logical.
Debate is nothing religious people are interested in. They are interested in convincing others of their beliefs, because that will make these beliefs even stronger. They try to evangelize, and those who refuse to adopt these beliefs, are understood as somehow faulty. Don’t want to acccept the good news, mostly for scurrilous reasons. They’re less evolved, less smart, less pure, etc. While those who do are harder, better, stronger, faster. Feels good to feel superior, doesn’t it? :lol:
Isn’t that so? If you are “dead certain” that your position is correct, then what are you doing here? If not trying to evangelise people?
However, that is not the path of a Jnani, it is not logical, it is not science, so I thank you for submitting your viewpoint and wish you a good day.
Or, my sincere friend, you deal with those three posts I have written to demonstrate the weakness of your arguments and your debative skillz. You can change my mind anytime. But you gotta change yourself first. Huge task, I admit, but my offer stands.