Pat, unfortunately this is so true, but perhaps they need to be stuck there for a while. 
Catholicism and Yoga
There are a few things which probably are not clarified yet.
http://www.skepticfiles.org/rumor/vaticanz.htm
The Vatican seems to take position against some issues in yoga. It is beyond my competence to judge these but I just raise the questions.
It looks like the Vatican does not believe in reaching union with the God inside oneself.
But St. Maximus tells about “the divine wisdom invisibly contained in creatures.”
I remember a text from the Bible where Jesus Christ says: “I have become man for you to
become God.”
Who am I to judge that? I just ask for clarification.
I am in no position to judge catholic faith. I was born to it, yet I am not practicing it as it is a custom. In fact I was opposing it, for long, and my christianity was born on other bases than ritualistic external practice. I’d say organized religion has nothing to do with me becoming a chirstian. I see catholic faith not an enemy as it is a religion filled with mistery, and suitable for certain people. For other’s it needs to be lit trhough by the light of reason, as it happened in my case.
The link you gave is third hand information and is already distorted by unscrupulous jurnalism. You see, journalists try to find and see conflict everywhere, because that’s what they live from. By it’s nature, journalism is prone to superficiality.
I feel the same concern regarding yoga’s popularity. But that coming from a self proclaimed christian, or God forbid from the pope Himself, is immediatly seen as example of intolerance. The devil one see’s outside is in fact, inside. But I must rephrase … because most people do not see the devil outside, they see their fellow humans as bad persons. It takes discernment to realize that others are not the bad ones, but their devils are. And one recognizes those devils because one knows them from personal experience. But this rationale would require acception of supernatural powers … and that is hard to reconcile with the superficial materialism what is so widespread these days. Yoga is popular because it is an immediate practice, where the religion, the world view is secondary (at least in most western schools) or if it’s not, disciples do not take it seriously, but as an exotic cosmetics what makes them feel special.
I’d say, a real yogi is just as hard to find as a real christian, and there’s no big difference. And it is not people’s fault, it is just the way things are, and how they supposed to be. As a snake changes it’s skin, society, state, religion needs changes from time to time. Conservative catholicism is just as bad as escapist eastern methods, but with God’s grace they are for a greater purpose. Opposing ones, one gets into another, to realize eventually that there is no universal outer solution to his life.
See the Self inside, the Self outside, You, Me, as One. When I AM, is said, thought, realized, all talk and teaching pales in comparison.
(The smaller aspects are just as imprtant, but their importance is relative. The importance of I AM, is absolute.)
The Christian faith in general opposes finding divinity in anything but God and the Holy Trinity. Therefore seeking divinity within yourself, asking for a “spiritual guide” other than God is considered heresy. Does that help clarify things for you Oak?
Many Catholics and other Christians are able to practice yoga quite well with no issue from the Vatican or whatever body governs their church by merely seeking God in their meditations. That is all that is required.
For most this is just a semantic game. Choose the label that works and use it. The end result is the same.
[QUOTE=Hubert;14315]I am in no position to judge catholic faith. I was born to it, yet I am not practicing it as it is a custom. In fact I was opposing it, for long, and my christianity was born on other bases than ritualistic external practice. I'd say organized religion has nothing to do with me becoming a chirstian. I see catholic faith not an enemy as it is a religion filled with mistery, and suitable for certain people. For other's it needs to be lit trhough by the light of reason, as it happened in my case.
The link you gave is third hand information and is already distorted by unscrupulous jurnalism. You see, journalists try to find and see conflict everywhere, because that's what they live from. By it's nature, journalism is prone to superficiality.
I feel the same concern regarding yoga's popularity. But that coming from a self proclaimed christian, or God forbid from the pope Himself, is immediatly seen as example of intolerance. The devil one see's outside is in fact, inside. But I must rephrase ... because most people do not see the devil outside, they see their fellow humans as bad persons. It takes discernment to realize that others are not the bad ones, but their devils are. And one recognizes those devils because one knows them from personal experience. But this rationale would require acception of supernatural powers ... and that is hard to reconcile with the superficial materialism what is so widespread these days. Yoga is popular because it is an immediate practice, where the religion, the world view is secondary (at least in most western schools) or if it's not, disciples do not take it seriously, but as an exotic cosmetics what makes them feel special.
I'd say, a real yogi is just as hard to find as a real christian, and there's no big difference. And it is not people's fault, it is just the way things are, and how they supposed to be. As a snake changes it's skin, society, state, religion needs changes from time to time. Conservative catholicism is just as bad as escapist eastern methods, but with God's grace they are for a greater purpose. Opposing ones, one gets into another, to realize eventually that there is no universal outer solution to his life.
See the Self inside, the Self outside, You, Me, as One. When I AM, is said, thought, realized, all talk and teaching pales in comparison.
(The smaller aspects are just as imprtant, but their importance is relative. The importance of I AM, is absolute.)[/QUOTE]
Please do not misunderstand me. I also practice Yoga, including meditation.
That means that I am on the side of Yoga.
But I am also a Christian, Eastern Orthodox, i.e. trying to see the Christian points of view.
In my opinion, it is no good throwing the issues aside by simple statements. We have got to solve the issues.
My aim is not to cast doubts on Yoga. This is pretty obvious, as I do practice it. My aim is twofold :
- to raise the issues
- to solve the issues, by showing that there is no contradiction between
Christianity and Yoga.
In the next posts I will show how the early saints and fathers of the desert actually practised their form of Yoga. I am still going to go further than that.
As to the quality of the report posted, you might be right. You can find many reports on the Internet about this subject. E. g.:
Oak, did you miss my post? Or is that the simplistic answer you say ignores the issue?
In my opinion, the only issue is the words you use. If you use the correct words for your particular religion there is no issue whatsoever except that which you create.
[QUOTE=Alix;14322]Oak, did you miss my post? Or is that the simplistic answer you say ignores the issue?
In my opinion, the only issue is the words you use. If you use the correct words for your particular religion there is no issue whatsoever except that which you create.
[/QUOTE]
I did not miss your post.
The analysis of the issues goes much deeper though. I did not want to go directly to the conclusion- as drawn in books of Yoga and Christianity- without some historical background.
Maybe I venture too much. If the forum wants, I can discontinue my posts on these issues. If some people want to go further, there are many books on Yoga and Christianity. An excellent book is:
A meeting of mystic paths.
Christianity and Yoga.
Justin O'BrienPost as much as you will. I believe that most things are only as complex or as simple as we make them. I prefer simplicity. If you prefer complexity that is your choice and your path. Namaste.
Intolerance itself is a form of egoism, and to condemn egoism intolerantly is to share it. - George Santayana
I think Abrahamic/Ibrahimic faiths underestimate egoism.
I just have watched an incredible movie. Subject: WATER
This movie is not only scientifical, but deeply religious. You will see incredible things, like the memory of water, how the people can communicate at the distance, etc.
They speak in English, but the subtitles are in Romanian.
[quote=madeline_sweet;8673]
I am 32, and this really shouldn’t matter to me, I have not lived in their house in 14 years … but it does. They are my family after all - and I love them, and desire their approval.
I don’t know how to Respect my family … AND Respect myself in this situation …
~Madeline[/quote]
Hi Madeline,
Do you tell everyone everything about yourself? There are some aspects of my life that I never told my parents about once I moved out of their home. My life was my life and their lives theirs. I remember facing a similar dilemma when I was going to ‘shack up’ with someone - I told them, they didn’t say boo about it. (yes they are Christian AND old fashioned).
The best way to respect yourself AND them is to discern what information of your life needs to remain your private business, and what you can share with them. We don’t share every intimate detail of our lives with our parents nor do our children share everything with us.
If knowing this information is going to bring a grudge or separation then it is probably best not to share it. However, in light of you being keen to make this a career for yourself, by teaching, you will have to share this with them.
From what I have read, it sounds like you have a lot of ‘working through’ to do before you come to the point of telling them. You could pursue being an instructor and then find out it is not for you but simply practising yoga is.
So my advice to you is to get it settled in your own mind before you start sharing your practise with them. If you aren’t settled then when you talk to them about it, it will sound like you are unsettled and not confident. If you are confident about the whole thing, they will quite possibly have an easier time understanding you and yoga.
I practised yoga for years before I told anyone I did that. Not because I had a dilemma but because I just felt it was very private and not everyone needed to know my private business. Same with Bellydance - I have been bellydancing for years and again did not openly talk about it because it is my personal and private time. Some people make fun of the latter because it does have a bad reputation, but it is an excellent way to keep the ab muscles conditioned along with being good aerobic activity.
You could be working yourself up about telling them and their reaction will be a simple: yes and? and then you move on with everything.
All the best in working through your emotions and thoughts on this one.
1 Like
I am linking some reading. It need’s a bit of focus, but it worths it.
Esoteric Cosmogony a series of lectures (year 1906) by Rudolf Steiner. (1861-1925)
Chapters V and VI discuss Yoga.
instead of Cosmogony = Cosmology
sorry
[QUOTE=Hubert;14370]I am linking some reading. It need’s a bit of focus, but it worths it.
Esoteric Cosmogony a series of lectures (year 1906) by Rudolf Steiner. (1861-1925)
Chapters V and VI discuss Yoga.[/QUOTE]
I have browsed through the works of Rudolf Steiner. I can see that he was much influenced by Goethe.
What about these two verses of Goethe:
Sich selbst zu kriegen is der schwerste Krieg,
Sich selbts zu siegen is der schonste Sieg.
In (approximative) English:
To fight with yourself is the toughest war,
To conquer yourself is the nicest victory.
But you find that in Yoga too. Was Goethe involved in Yoga ?
Once man starts a religion and starts to build up an organization around it, they create rules and dogmatism to keep the organization going.
This goes to all the so called big Religions.
That is the point where the freedom of the individual ends.
All concepts are limiting the consciousness, so how can a limited mind realise the vast, unlimited space and silence in the creation.
Still in all the religions one can find very spiritual and free people and just the oposite and anything inbetween.
There is nothing against religion, but it should be lived in the sense of the word which means to come together to realize the unity in the diversity.
Instead of saying for example: I?m a Christ so I?m better than a Hindu or whatever.
A well educated mind has a big knowledge but not necessarily more freedom.
Lars
Dear Oak
Don`t become to clever, unless you want to become a pundit instead of a Yogi.
Lars
[quote=oak333;14399]
But you find that in Yoga too. Was Goethe involved in Yoga ?[/quote]
Goethe was an Initiate, as was Steiner.
An Initiate is twice-born. Once from flesh, and once from Spirit.
There are various levels of initiation, depending on the spiritualization of the various bodies (koshas). The spiritualized astral body (desire body) becomes Manas, the spiritualized etheric body (pranamaya kosha) becomes Buddhi, the spiritualized physical body becomes Atman (spirit-man). The latter bodies exist in an imperfect state today, while the former three (physical, etheric-vital, astral-desire bodies) have been accomplished in former ages. The task is to work on our astrel (soul) etheral (vital) and physical nature and spiritualize them. A time will come (through various ages, and many incarnations, when even earthly conditions will be entirely different) when the so called “lower” bodies will be shed, but that is juts posiible when through their help, the higher ones has been aquired.
The higher bodies of an initiate are different from that of the average person like you and me. (except you are initiates of course, but I can’t know that)
The chakras, or wheels, are “lit up, and rolling”. Do not try to picture it, because this is not a sensorial experience. It happens in the soul of the seer, and it is juts evokes the feelings accompanying the corresponding physical forms and sensations. When somone sees the aura, one does not see it with one’s physical eyes, but with one’s spiritual eyes. In a way, what happens is that what happens in the other being is expereinced as happening in the soul of the seer.
The spiritual blindness of the two thousand years following the coming of Christ was on purpose. Christ did not teach reincarnation on purpose, even though He hinted it to Nicodemus. That purpose was the building of western civilization as we know it today. One must be very shortsighted and radical to say that western civilization is all bad. It is not. There have been a great breakthrough in science and in knowledge of the material world. There have been an unprecedented raise in the capacity of reasoning, logical, objective thinking, what culminates in the intellectual pride of many humans today. The sense of me-ness, I-ness, as a free physical individual, was not possible in earlier ages. The western culture stands on the grounds of greek and roman culture. Human rights, citizenship was born in these cultures. We, westernes often forget how much we can than to our own culture. It is natural to see the downsides. We unconsciously extrapolate these faculties we gained, and the rights we have to ages where they were simply not present, except a very few people. This mistake is present in our hystorical perception, too. Our history is based on physical evidence, provided by archeology, and study of old books. The real history is that of the spirit. That is hard to trace back, and is only possible for initiates.
Shortly, what is often seen an ever increasing involvement in matter, was a necessary thing. It is childish to believe in some form of higher power, than still judge the world’s course. If there is such a power, we can’t understand it’s reasons, or motives, hence we are not entitled to form a judgement on wheter Jesus, or Buddha, or Mohammed were right ot not. They did exactly what was needed. Everyone does.
Humanity is lead. It always has been lead by initiates. Today’s science stands on the work of men and women who know much more that we would imagine. They were inspired, led by initiates. This thing was always kept secret. The development of human freedom, and the ego we have today would not be possible if we had to face our smallness. The sense of individuality, we so proudly posess today could never emerge. It is known that if you try to teach a child things the child is not yet ready to learn, the development of that child is thwarted. We are children, all of us. We are being taken care of. Some of us will graduate sooner, some later.
When Lars says, cleverness will not lead you to God, he is right. Yet, what do you do after ? Cleverness is needed in this world. Without it there would be no medicine, no engineering, none of the good things we have today. Our lives would be much harder, yet, it is easier now. This grants the time, for example, to live in a big city, and afford the time for study, or yoga practice, for a wide range of people. This make possible Information Technology to be here, and the internet, so we can converse here. These are not free. Someone has worked hard so we have it. Someone was smart, and clever.
Absolute truths are useless. Practical truths make a difference. They make our lives better, provide more and more challenges. The reason behind all this is that we become again spiritual citizens, but with full rights. Once we have been being living in the spiritual worlds, but without the capacity to say, I AM. Our physical boundaries and the blindness what came with it was necessary to develop the faculties, and individuality we have today. Now it is time to use these faculties and return home, as citizens, not unconscious beings. When Lucifer said (as the bible myth says), You will become gods, that was’nt a false promise. It is the shortsightedness of conservative christian theology to see the fall, as something evil. It is only evil from human persepctive, as with it came physical life with it’s pains, suffering, decay, and death. From a spiritual perspective it was necessary. If it wasn’t so, that would mean that God does not have absolute power. If Lucifer, as a high spiritual being could do anything against Gods will, that would make God’s omnipotence questionable. Yes, they say, the fredom of choice is granted to free spiritual beings, that would explain it … but than there would be nothing to stop anarchy.
The world is much more complex as we would imagine. Today’s human intellect indeed is not capable to comprehend the fullness of creation, yet it can comprehend much more than let’s say, 2-3000 years before. It needs not to be shun, but developed, togheter with other faculties. What do you think ajna-chakra does ? I am a believer of groundedness. Without the light of reason it is so easy to be lost in extremes. Of course cleverness and intellect alone are just tools, they cannot take you all the way, but they are great tools to aquire a sound judgement, discernment, to understand your own path, to strenghetn your will. Right will comes from right comprehension. The objective, cold thinking applied to our personal life lifts us, and makes us able to see it for what it is, what forces work in it, what are the main factors of human condition. So far this intellect has been applied to external subjects.
A certain form of yoga is being objective about ourselves, and uncompromising regarding the truth’s we discover. That yoga is a science. It is called raja yoga. This yoga has been made available today not only for Kings, but for everyone. In a way, we all became kings.
I think noone dares to say that intellectual power and cleverness, the ability to think clearly, to use the light of reason to develop discernment is useless for a raja yogi. There are other ways, yes, but this restricted way, today is becoming mainstream, and accesible to many.
Dear Oak,
You have said a lot to focus the attention on the Catholic church and what it has done etc and I think most of us are well aware of the weaknesses of the Church and religion in general. I am a Liberal Catholic (opposed to Roman Catholic) and our parish here in Pretoria is packed with yogis, theosophists, free masons and other free thinking people. The Liberal Catholic Church encourages its members to seek the Light within and also in the other religions of the world. I present my yoga classes in their hall and some of our priests did yoga when they were younger. Please search wider and don’t focus on the weakness of one as representative of the many.
Here is the link to the LCC in SA, here is info about the Church and its teachings: (apologies to admin, but I don’t know how else to do it.)
Hi, Madeleine,
Reading your post again, I have advice.
Pray for those you meet who accept hatred (religion-bashing) as normal.
Choose the center of your devotion (bhakti) wisely, and eschew anything that brings you away from it.
Gently lampoon and urge people you meet to be good.
(isn’t always fun, but is always at the heart of why you are you, when you could have been someone else.)
dear friends ,
hello,
As we are aware that that lord Jesus was born in Jerusalem and Christianity spread. Lord Buddha born in India, Buddhism spread. Hazrat Mohammed Sahib born in Arab and Islamic religion spread. In the same manner so many religions have come into existence on this earth for the last so many years.
The Knowledge of yoga has emanated from Veda.Almighty God (the preserver,destroyer and creator) is the donor of this knowledge to Agni, aadtya Vaayu and angira rishi at the begining of this creation. Lets here from Samadhist yogi Swami Ramswarup ji about this :-
Accordingly, we must also invent that when the Earth created and to whom the theory of YOGA was taught first? And how it spread? In this connection learned MATTERLIC in his book “The great secret” has written,
“let us once given ear to Rig Veda, the most authentic echo of the most immortal traditions.”
“Let us note now it appreciates the formidable problems.”
“There was neither Being nor non-Being. There was neither atmosphere nor heaven above the atmosphere. What moved, and whither? And in whose care ? Were there waters and the bottomless deep?”.
“There was then neither death nor immortality. The day was not divided from the night. Only one breathed in himself without extraneous breath and apart from Him , there was nothing.”
“There, for the first time desire awoke within him, this was the first seed of the spirit. The sages, full of understanding, striving within their hearts, discovered in Non-Being the link with Being “
From the above description one can conclude that at the very beginning of creation, there was God alone with the matter (Prakriti) which was to be used to create the universe. Secondly there was no death because there was no life, as death is only possible if there is life. Thirdly God created all beings like man, woman, space, sun, moon, earth, water, flora and fauna etc. All our ancient Rishis and Saints realized this truth. Now listen the authentic echo of Yajur Veda in Mantra seven of Chapter thirty-one:
“After the creation of earth and all beings ,the knowledge of four Vedas originated from the almighty, omnipresent, worshipful and venerable GOD”.
Manusmiriti in its Shalok 1/23 throw the same light in this connection :-
“The God Almighty created the earth and human being . Thereafter He showered His blessings to four Rishis by generating the knowledge of four Vedas in their souls to enable the mankind to attain the stage of Arth (Finance), Dharma (Religion), Kaam (good wishes and to get happy family life) and Moksh (Final liberation )”.
The same truth is seen in the 3rd Sutra of Chapter 1 of Vedanta Darshana by Viyas Muni :
” Worship the God who is the origin of Four Vedas”.
Similarly Guru Nanak Dev Ji also preached: “Onkar Veda Nirmaye” Meanings: “The Vedas were originated by God.”
Similarly, there are so many statements of Vedas and other Holy books where it is clarified that the Almighty God is only the origin of four Vedas, Now we come on the point that from where the Yoga Education originated. In this connection please see the contents of Mantra No 4, Chapter 7 of Yajur Veda as under:
“Aspirant of Yoga should learn and practice the eight fold of Yoga i.e. 5 Yamas-Non-violence, Truthfulness, Abstaining from theft, Celibacy and not to store the articles more than the requirement (Self Abnegation)”.
5 Niyams- Cleanliness, Contentment, Austerity, Study of holy books and Trust in God. Their Niyamas are also five. Then Asana, Pranayama, Pratayahar, Dharana, Dhayana and Samadhi .
Again in the above Mantra it is preached that “O aspirant try to stop internal breathing (Paranayam) to perish away the false knowledge, sufferings, ravages of hatred and tension etc. Thus remove through the power of Yoga all ills and becoming abstemious attain the Yoga property and guard it”. Yoga properties are eight sidhis (will be briefed afterwards) and realisation of God (Samadhi). The same description of Yoga Education is seen in several Mantras of remaining three Vedas. Some mantras Are quoted below:
(a) Rig Veda Mantra I, Sukta 93 Mandal 9 Says:- When a Yogi has control on his 5 organs of action, 5 organs of perception and mind through the power of Yoga, in this way when he does meditation, then he sees God (realize God within his soul)
(b) Same Veda’s Mantra No 50 says:- O God kindly be firmly established in our hearts during the Yogic and devotional morning practices inhalation, exhalation (Pranayam).
© Sama Veda Mantra no 908 also states: O Omnipresent God, Thou are realized by the Yogis/Tapsavis/wisers in their hearts through the power of Yoga i.e. Pranayam and meditation etc.
(d) The God has been realizing through the eight fold paths of Yoga by the Yogis.
From the above it is learnt that the Yoga knowledge is the origin of four Vedas and thereafter spread by Rishis/Munis/Gurus traditionally from mouths to mouths and ear to ear within man kinds considering the same the most authentic and immortal tradition which one is a right and true path to worship and realize God too by overcoming sorrows /sufferings /ills and death etc, attaining the final stage of Arth, Dharam, Kama and Moksh.
So, the most authenticated, immortal and traditional knowledge of Yoga to worship God is originated from God’s voice in the shape of four Vedas at the time of creation on the Earth by him. That is why Manu Samriti says
"Vedo Akilo Dharma Mulam".
meaning -the most ancient authentic and immortal echo in the shape of four Vedas is the root of all religions in the world and accordingly the origin of worshipful Yoga philosophy is also a origin from Vedas.
I hope we should stop imperialist attitude and accept the facts as it is. Prior to advent of christanity and islam every body used to follow vedas. However mahabharat war has disastrous effect on the entire earth which was earlier known as bharath.Many aboriginal tribes and cultures were brutally destroyed by Christian missionaries and islamic invaders, if you study these lost cultures you may get more information and insight.
I personally believe that jesus was a realised soul his teachings are manipulated becos never a yogi will tell others to Kill and say that only worshippers of jesus will get salvation. A yogi never says he is God, Krishna never said, shiva ,sai baba of shirdi, swami Nityanand etc. All of them said they are humble servants of God. Infact if Jesus is a yogi, he must have conquered all the 5 perceptions , indriyaan and a yogi with ritambhara tatra pragya buddhi.
OM